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Shooting Coach/Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Mar 31, 2008.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Shooting Coach- I know you train Police Officers to shoot. I have, in the past, shot a lot of pistol. I shot at the lower end of the Master Class when I shot bullseye.

    If a bad guy was shooting at me 50 yards away, and I could stand up, extend my arm and have 30-45 seconds to get a round off, I am confident I could get a head shot if the guy would not move his head. But this would not be possible.

    You can train a person to shoot paper targets well, but how is it possible to train people to shoot well under stressful situations. Could you teach me how to keep the front sight exactly centered in the rear sight when someone is shooting at me? Shooting on a range is very different from shooting under stress.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. BBMAX

    BBMAX TS Member

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    Good Morning Pat - I know you are refering to pistol shooting here, but I have done a lot of work with Trapshooters concerning shooting under Competitive Stress. If you email me, I will return by email several attachments which deal with Competitive Stress in Trapshooting. I have had some very good results with some of my shooters all the way up to the National Level. Good Shooting Pat.

    Bruce Maxwell
     
  3. birdtracker

    birdtracker Active Member

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    Bruce and Pat: please check your mail. Don
     
  4. dbl20

    dbl20 TS Member

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    Pat – See MASSAD F. AYOOB’s Stressfire, Vol. 1 Gunfighting for Police: Advanced Tactics and Techniques. He is director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire and I believe his system has been adopted by the U. S. Army. – Jon Sharp
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I liked Doc Hollidays approach to lethal force, "I'm yer huckleberry", with his hand on his gun! :) Hap
     
  6. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Pat ... 50 yard gun fight with a pistol?
     
  7. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Pat

    During a Body Alarm Reaction (Fight/Flight syndrome or adrenaline dump caused by fear or threat of imminent death) a lot of things go on in the body. The main things are, loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and loss of cognitive function.

    In Bubba terms, one goes on autopilot. Your reactive brain takes over, your vision narrows and you focus on the threat. You may be unable to hear even a gunshot. You lack the coordination to tie your shoelaces. Your ability for rational judgement is GONE.

    Without training, you simply have a panic attack, and this puts a defender in a very vulnerable situation. You can't think, you can't visually scan for additional threats, hear, or do much with your hands! This fellow is likely to either run blindly and not fire a shot, or anchor himself to a spot, and spray shots until his gun jams or empties. This is not a person you want to be close to!

    With training, you will revert to what has been programmed into your reactive brain. Since your eyes are literally locked on the threat, you will not focus on your front sight. Therefore, you will point shoot. Often, even cops with several gunfights under their belts will shoot at a firearm or knife in an offender's hand. This is not because they are crack shots. It is because they are focused on the threat. One must also find and seek cover while they are assessing the threat(s).

    This is why good trainers drill into the student to shoot for Center of Mass. It is hard enough to hit the chest at short range when you are not looking at the front sight.

    Guess what? The new generation of criminal TRAINS. He may go to a martial arts studio, the gun range, and may wear body armor. How many battle hardened vets are going back to gang affiliations? He may have more experience than the uniformed defender on the street! Also, almost ONE IN THREE confrontations now are with FEMALES, and one in five with minors. Are you prepared to take the life of a teen aged female gang banger? They WILL take your life with no hesitation.

    Besides the additional time consuming decisions of using non lethals versus lethals, the extra manipulations required to access a sidearm in a retention holster, safeties, decockers, stoppage reduction if needed, reloading (if you cannot hear the firearm and are focused on a threat some distance from you, you will not see that the slide is locked because the firearm is empty!), there are other issues.

    Almost 80% of confrontations will occur in reduced or no light. More training and gear. Just how deep IS the training budget for a small Department?

    And not to put things in order of importance, one must train and defend in a court defensible manner! The legal system requires that a person in imminent fear of serious injury or DEATH perform in a "reasonable and prudent" manner.

    I have to take, and give court defensible training, so the defender, whether an Armed Professional or Citizen, has a chance of surviving a criminal and/or civil court proceeding. As a Trainer, I also may have to survive a criminal and/or civil court proceeding.

    There is an industry in the legal profession skilled at impoverishing those who defend themslves or others. Unfortunately, the United States Supreme Court has not stepped in on this. One can comply with Departmental Policies, State and Federal Laws, and still be dragged through court and LOSE!

    My job is challenging, but enjoyable. The main reason I stay in it is because I feel I must deliver the best, most up to date training I possibly can. Those I train with are some of the most noble folks I have ever met.

    If a student of mine takes a life to prevent a burglary, he has basically ruined his life and that of his family. If he shoots an offender who is no longer a threat, he will likely face criminal charges.

    I am sure you have heard of teenagers getting shot with nothing more offensive than a cell phone in their hand. When I train non lethal devices for this scenario, up to 70% of the time, a person with a non lethal object in their hand is fired on!

    If I work with you on threat definition, I can guarantee I will have you fire on me AFTER I have turned my back to you. I am an Instructor for Simunitions, which is like paintballs that are used in modified duty sidearms. You may use your duty rig, gear, mags, etc. with protective clothing. This is the best thing to come along in many years for realistic training that will leave you breathless.

    There are many facets of training in this industry.

    For those hapless souls who would take an eight hour course and then carry a handgun for personal defense, I can tell you it is not enough.

    I always believed that "Failure to train is training to fail".

    Although I spend over a month annually in advanced Instructor training, I feel it is barely adequate. I know many Instructors who have not taken a refresher course in years.

    I do not have enough Ego to think I do not need more training, but do not have enough time or resources to take much more than I do now.

    One must regularly practice in this very persishable skill. Going to the range and popping a nice tight group in a paper target is not training.

    One must also have the Warrior Mindset, which is another subject for another time.

    The Defender MUST win. The Offender MUST lose.

    You might take a look see at the website I posted. It is one of the best for understanding the self defense industry as a whole.
     
  8. dbl20

    dbl20 TS Member

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    ... Rules of Gun Fighting
    (Marines; Army; Navy; Air Force)
    5 May 2005
    ________________________________________
    USMC Rules For Gun Fighting
    1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring their friends who have guns.
    2. If you can, make friends with those on the crew served weapons. Bring them as well. Borrow money from them, it gives them an added incentive to protect you.
    3. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
    4. Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
    5. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
    6. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
    7. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
    8. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
    9. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating (calling for arty or air support), reloading, and running.
    10. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
    11. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
    12. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
    13. In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
    14. Have a plan.
    15. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
    16. Have a back-up, back-up plan in case CentCom or SecDef finds the first two plans "unacceptable".
    17. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The only visible target should be in your gun sights.
    18. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect your flank.
    19. Don't drop your guard.
    20. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
    21. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
    22. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
    23. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
    24. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
    25. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
    26. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
    27. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

    Army Rules for Gun Fighting
    1. See USMC Rules to gun Fighting.
    2. Add 60 to 90 days.
    3. Hope the Marines already destroyed all meaningful resistance.

    Navy Rules for Gun Fighting
    1. Adopt an aggressive offshore posture.
    2. Send in the Marines.
    3. Drink Coffee and eat donuts.

    Air Force Rules for Gun Fighting
    1. Kiss the wife goodbye.
    2. Drive to the base in your sports car.
    3. Fly to target area, drop bombs, (try not to hit the Canuks) fly back to your home base.
    4. BBQ some burgers and drink beer in your back yard, and talk shit about the Navy, Army and Marines.
    From - Sniper Country.com
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mr Newbius- For some years I shot at a 3 inch 10 ring at 50 with a pistol and hit it a with some consistency. The 9 ring was a little larger and the 8 ring was about the size of a human head. When I threw the shot into the 8 ring, it was a very poor shot.

    Shooting Coach- I understand what you have said. But, I am not sure, regardless of how much training you would give me, how I would react if someone were actually shooting at me.

    How would you react if you were in an airplane and the pilot announced an emergency landing and hoped he could make it to an airport that had a runway a little too short for the plane? To my surprise, I was quite and resigned. Others reacted differently, very differently. The well trained stewardess muttered a cuss word and fainted in the middle of the isle. I believe we really do not know how we would react to certain situations until we are in them. Training does help a lot but it cannot produce a guarantee.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. M-16

    M-16 TS Member

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    Well put shooting coach. you won't know what you did until afterwards. repetitive training so you do it with out thinking. People who say I'll do this or that scare me the quite one who's done their training usally was the first to act correctly first. I know I did not respond as quick as I would of liked too the first time, but my buddy did problem gone! Shoot center mask if they don't fall [ body armor ] "he hurting" now your compitive shooting should kick in and go for the head. Hope you never have to seen a lot of justafied shootings give good soldiers nightmares.
     
  11. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Pat

    You are absolutely right. After all the training available, folks have failed to ever get a shot off.

    Some folks who have survived this have been asked why they did not shoot.

    Some folks said they hesitated because they were afraid of repercussions from administration or legal problems. Some said they could not take a human life. Others, quite frankly, said that because of religious convictions they were afraid they would go to Hell if they took a life!

    Fact is, if an offender has put you in a situation where you have to take his life, that is HIS decision, not yours.

    After all is said and done, we are only frail humans. The toughest, meanest SOB that ever lived has a weakness, and a soft spot in his heart.

    The quicker we revert to our training during a lethal confrontation, the quicker, decisively and more likely we are to get rounds downrange and survive the confrontation.

    The more we rationalize, the less likely we are to get shots off and survive the confrontation.

    Some folks are not warriors. The lucky ones find that out before the fight.

    Now, where were we? 7 1/2's or 8's? LOL
     
  12. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Pat


    This post doesn't have anything to do with our disagreement over the automatic punch system does it???


    Jerry Hauser
     
  13. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Fred

    Never been in a riot. Just lucky, I guess.

    These days, one must have that piece of paper or you can't train. You have to have creds to even get in a car or put on a uniform. The GOVT', INSURANCE and LAWYERS run the show now.

    I can tell you have gone forth and performed good deeds. Thanks for your service.

    The more like sheep people get, the more they depend on and need a sheepdog.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry Hauser - It could involve a very different punch system. If I were in a situation where someone was shooting at me, I honestly can't say if I would expose myself and shoot back or stay out of sight for fear of getting a punch from a bullet. I might defend myself by shooting back or I might protect myself by staying out of sight.

    I think I am a brave person but have never been in a situation that would require me to be truly brave. When I was in the airplane we thought was going down, I was not brave, I was resigned. It is easy to be brave until you actually have to do it.

    Pat Ireland
     
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