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Shipping a gun

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Backlash, Jan 27, 2008.

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  1. Backlash

    Backlash TS Member

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    Am considering selling my Beretta AL-391 as I can't shoot it anymore. I know it will need to be shipped to an FFL dealer on the receiving end but will I need to ship it FROM one on my end? How do you ship a gun, FedEx, UPS ??? What is a fair price for a used 391? It's only had about 2K rounds thru it but has had some neglect just sitting in the case in the basement.

    Thanks, Bill in Oregon
     
  2. roper

    roper TS Member

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    Whatever you do dont ship UPS.

    ROPA
     
  3. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Bill:

    As I understand the ATF rules, You can ship your gun to an FFL holder for transfer to the actual buyer. You do not have to be a holder. However, this may vary from state to state, so you need to know the state laws as well as the federal. I have had no problem in sending shotguns to a buyer as long as the gun went to the FFL holder. What you do need is for the buyer or the FFL dealer, to send you a signed copy of the FFL (must be an orginal signature, not a photocopy or other signature -this is critical under federal law) Then (if your state permits) you may send the gun to the FFL address of record, at which point the FFL holder logs the gun in his/her records of receipt, and then does the federal transfer (form 4473, instant check, etc) to move the gun to the actual buyer. Most FFL holders charge a reasonable fee for this.

    Contrary to some opinions expressed on this site, I have used UPS to ship firearms (not handguns) a number of times with absoulutely no problem. Just be sure it is packed properly and protected, and then insure for the full value of the weapon. Also, it is best to go directly to a UPS office to ship, as many of the subsidiary package places do no understand UPS rul federal or state laws, etc tho they claim to be UPS shippers. I believe this is where most problems seem to occur.

    Please note that I am not a lawyer orlegal advisor however. The above info I base on my reading of the federal laws on shipping in the most recent ATF publications, which I have and try to follow closely. But you may want to call ATF to verify or find a FFL holder who will ship for you for a reasonable fee to be absolutely safe.
     
  4. BustClays

    BustClays Member

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    My FFL tells me that a fax copy is fine.
    Go to the post office, send it Priority/Insured/with delivery confirmation from you, directly to the FFL. If it makes them feel better, inclose a bill of sale specifying the serial # and description etc. DO NOT tell the postal clerk, "Oh, by the way, it's a gun." They will not know the law and will get very confused. Simply answer the standard questions, not hazardess, fragile or liquid. If they are adament about what's in it, for insurance purposes, the standard answer is, "Finished machined parts." I mailed a rifle from FL to AR yesterday, cost me $32. No problems ever with USPS.

    bustclays
     
  5. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    here we go again
     
  6. ims041

    ims041 TS Member

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    ask around some more because i found it fairly easy to ship from U S to canada not even very hard. Make sure your money and the "parcel" can be tracked. easy as a little paper trail
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    There should be a sticky on this to save bandwidth.

    HM
     
  8. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    I just shipped mine with UPS 3/4 of the way across the country with no problem.
     
  9. Backlash

    Backlash TS Member

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    Thanks MIA. It's an AL-391 Urika. I purchased it as the trap model but I don't believe it's marked anywhere as trap. I was hoping for $650. + shipping so I guess I'm in the right neighborhood. It has all the chokes plus 2 shell catchers and the Cole spring set, which I never used or tried.
     
  10. BustClays

    BustClays Member

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    DB Bill,
    Why don't you cut and paste the section of federal law which requires you to tell the postal clerk that you are shipping a legal long gun. I would really like to read it. I can't seem to find it on the USPS web-site. Is it an ATF regulation?

    Thanks much,

    bustclays
     
  11. BustClays

    BustClays Member

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    Here is what I found on the ATF website, it does not mention anything about a requirement to tell to USPS what you are mailing. Unless I was asked a direct question, I would not offer it up as FYI.


    B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]


    A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

    [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]



    (B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]


    A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


    (B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]


    Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.


    bustclays
     
  12. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    From the UPS web site. Based on my read, UPS allows FFL to FFL shipment of whole shotguns. No shipping of a whole shotgun, or the part that constitutes a "firearm" under federal law, shipped by a non-FFL.

    Shipping Firearms

    Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

    Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
    UPS accepts packages containing firearms, as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code, for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code, law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States) and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), and from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and package.

    Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
    UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)
    UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.
    Firearms, including handguns, and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally
    Ammunition may be accepted for shipment internationally provided it is shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping International Goods.
    UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.

    Follow These Packing Requirements
    Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS.
    Ammunition cannot be included in packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Ammunition must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials, or the UPS Guide for Shipping International Dangerous Goods.
    Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments.

    About Documentation and Labeling
    The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.

    Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
    You can only ship your package that contains a handgun from UPS daily pickup accounts or through UPS Customer Centers (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Handguns are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.
    When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
    You can ship a firearm (excluding handguns, which are discussed above), from a UPS daily pickup account, UPS On-Call Pickup, One-Time Pickup, or a UPS Customer Center. Note: Firearms are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or at The UPS Store or any third party retailer.
    See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.
     
  13. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    From the FedEx web site. FedEx apparently allows FFL to FFL and individual to FFL, where not prohibited otherwise. Overnite only, and the gun has to be declared.

    Firearms

    FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
    Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
    Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
    If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.
    Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.
    Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
    The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
    The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
    G. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
     
  14. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Lastly, USPS is not a "common carrier" as defined by ATF rules for declaring the package as a firearm.

    Please note that I also am not an attorney, and did not even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    My guess is that if you ship a firearm by UPS or FedEx in violation of their written rules, it would be difficult to collect under the insurance if something happened to the shipment. It might also be an ATF violation to ship via a company in violation of their written rules.

    Danny
     
  15. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Bustclays, if you would re-read the last sentence of (B8) that you posted above, ya will see where ya gotta tell 'em that it is a firearm, unless I can't read too good, which I doubt. Dunno how they would prove that ya didn't tell 'em, if it was lost and had to file a claim, as there can be no markings on the package. Just my 2 cents worth from my saddle.


    Gne J.
     
  16. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Once again, with feeling. The United States Post Office is not a common carrier. B8 above does not apply to long guns shipped through the post office.

    Danny
     
  17. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    US Postal svc regs:

    11.3 Rifles and Shotguns
    Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e.

    11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
    Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.

    Altough it does not state specifically that you must tell them it is a firearm, they DO ask what's in the package routinely.

    I would think that means you have to tell them. Why would anyone care ablut declaring that it's a gun, anyway?

    HM
     
  18. BustClays

    BustClays Member

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    I can only speak of my own experiences with USPS clerks in various locations in NY and in FL.


    They have never asked me "What's in the package?" They have only asked if it is, "hazardous, liquid, fragile or perishable?" I answer no!


    Once I volunteered that it was a rifle and I had a bunch of nervous postal clerks who did not know what to do and finally said that they could not accept it. I asked for the postmaster on duty, who arrived only to spend the next 15 minutes looking thru regulations and then making a phone call and finally, with great disdain, admitted that they had to accept it.


    Because I don't need the hassle, I don't volunteer what is not asked. With this personal policy, all shipments thru USPS have been smooth as silk.


    BTW. I shipped a gun to myself from FL to AZ to use for recreational shooting in Dec. (sent it to me C/O my son) not a question, not a problem.


    Not trying to "bust chops" just wanted anyone who cares to benefit from my experience.

    bustclays
     
  19. A Sparks

    A Sparks Member

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    I went to ship a shotgun to an out of state FFL HOLDER and the local hens at UPS flipped out. Being patient I explained that it was in fact legal and with me giving them the correct wording on what I was trying to do WORD for WORD, they asked the "home office" over the phone.

    Result: One gun shipped with little delay.

    People just don't know.
     
  20. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    My UPS Driver strongly suggested "Adult Signature Required" for all guns. Some of these FFLS work out of their homes with kids around. So that gun shouldn't be just dropped off at the front door. Dave T.
     
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