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Severe Penalty for "Cheaters" Revisited

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Neil Winston, Dec 27, 2007.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Your interesting post brings up several questions, Earl.

    This "statistical analysis of handicap scores" you advocate - what sort of analysis, specifically, should be done?

    What makes you think that most trapshooters may be cheating?

    What evidence do you have to support your assertion "The $750, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 rules will probably be suspended any day"?

    Neil
     
  2. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    Name one single cheater that you personally know of, Earl.
     
  3. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Don't ask Earl any questions he can't answer, which is any question.
     
  4. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Neil ... the 1st thing that could be done is to take all money out of the sport. Tell the clubs sponsoring a shoot that if they want to gamble and have Lewis classes than there will be no registered targets for that day. Playing the options is gambling and is the ATA a gambling organization or a amateur sports organization.

    Take the money out and then enforce the rules ... do not leave anything at all up to the interpretation of anyone. The rule book is the bible and if you dont follow it you aint holding registered events.

    Would the above 2 things ever happen? Nope notta a icebergs chance in hell would it ever happen so why ask what should be done?
     
  5. Pipe Layer

    Pipe Layer Well-Known Member

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    Bobdog,

    I don't think anyone would stoop to nameing someone on a public forum. But don't believe they are not there.

    If you have the ability to look at past shoots as Delegates can it is not hard to find them and is also not hard to stop them if the Delegate does his job. They have a pattern, shoot a good score and win at big shoots then run home to the small clubs and shoot in the ground looking to be reducted back up.I said they were dishonest , NOT SMART!

    If a shooter comes up for a reduction all Delegates can and should look at least three years of the shooters records. It will show the trend if they are sandbaggers. I look, most don't.

    Terry Dean
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    If you re-read my post to Earl, lumper, you'll see that my question "What should be done" referred to "statistical analysis," not to trapshooting in general as you have misinterpreted it.

    ". . .what sort of analysis, specifically, should be done?"

    I'm sorry that you missed the point of the question.

    Neil
     
  7. sammyd95

    sammyd95 TS Member

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    years ago i can remembere my uncle making the statment that if he would intentionalyy miss,x amount of targets he should hit in the lewis class,I am sure he is not the only one that has ever done that.just for one example.....
     
  8. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Neil ... I didn't misread your post. You are one of the many who like to analyze everything to the 'nth degree to avoid the common sense questions and answers.

    There are those out there that will over analyze and scream for analyzing of everything in the world just to show that they think they are smarter than everyone and then try and force there box upon them ... sorry ... I'm getting a little overboard like those who analyze everything.

    BTW ... has anyone ever realized that the first 4 letters in analyze spell what most people are when they have to analyze everything to try and prove there points?
     
  9. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    "BTW ... has anyone ever realized that the first 4 letters in analyze spell what most people are when they have to analyze everything to try and prove there points?:

    Wow, that was exceptionally brilliant in a foolish sort of way.
     
  10. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Gosh Earl, it's more fun to watch you play with your tiny brain.
     
  11. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Thats his brain? I had been told once that men think with whats in there pants but that is his brain and just WTF are you doing looking at it while he is playing with it?????????
     
  12. firecracker

    firecracker TS Member

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    Earl Hamman, the Earl Mamman I can find in ATA shooters records registered 500 targets last year. How with such little experience with ATA registered shooting can you declare anything the "ATA's number one problem? Don't you think you should gain a LOT more experience with the ATA before you pass judgement? cracker
     
  13. firecracker

    firecracker TS Member

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    Terry Dean, do the ATA records you access give weather conditions, if the targets were soft or long, if the shooters health was up to par? Do you check to see if the targets shot prior to the "BIG SHOOT" were winter targets to aquire minimums just to be able to shoot the SG, Zone, State shoot in the proper class or yardage group? There are just TOOOO many variables to be able to judge a shooters ability from printed records. I think you do a major dis-service to the members you represent if you base your judgements of sandbagging strictly on printed matter. cracker
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    For everyone who thinks the ATA is being overrun by cheaters and gamblers . . . what do you think of the idea of awarding one trophy per event? Person who breaks the most targets wins. No categories, no classes, no yardages or punches or reductions, no gambling (as defined by you).

    How about it. Would you still participate? If you want fair, with no cheating or sandbagging, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Would you still show up?

    My personal view is that most the people bitching are the ones that can't shoot well enough to win and get some satisfaction from attacking the ones who do. And just to be clear, I fall into the category of someone who can't shoot well enough to win (the majority of the time), but I sure enjoy the challenge.

    Scott
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Lewis Class and the 25s and 50s, the sandbaggers love them. They can miss targets , keep their average low, and still collect money for their efforts. Then at the big shoots, they have a good day. How fortunate that they shoot a good score when the monies right. HMB
     
  16. shoottx

    shoottx TS Member

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    Neil

    I agree with a statistical analysis if used correctly. And in all of your posts you represent data in a way that is useful, congratulations. The analysis that should be done is based on shoot size; a distribution of scores by class to see if the classification table as published accurately reflects the true classification of shooters. Then the distribution of scores based on the target volume of shooters to see if the classification table holds. Then using the work you have done on 16 yard vs. handicap, validate the distribution.

    While all of this seems like a lot of number crunching I am sure we could hire a couple of graduate students for a summer or as a practicum to doe the analysis with oversight of a select ATA committee.

    There are always some anomalies in the statistical work and that is where shoot management might also appreciate guidance.

    All that said; I really appreciate your common sense approach to these maters.

    Mike Jury
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mike- I do not understand what you have suggested. For exampl"... a distribution of scores by class to see if the classification table as published accurately reflects the true classification of shooters." If you are suggesting determination of the mean scores shot by shooters in each class +-1 SE and see if these numbers fit into the published suggested classification guide, it will not work. The only way such an analysis could be valid is that if shooters were classified to begin with by their past average +- 1 SE. Such a classification would tell us that a shooter classified as B is actually usually B, but sometimes A and sometimes C.

    I did this for my scores last year. My average +- 1 SE indicated that 95% of the time my predicted scores should be between B and AA and 5% of my scores should be lower than B or higher than AA. And, such an analysis demonstrates nothing.

    Pat Ireland

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. Pipe Layer

    Pipe Layer Well-Known Member

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    Firecracker,
    Yes I do take all that into consideration ! And it is as I said plain to see.I even get the timed excuse that . Oh well that club does not throw a good target.It don't fly, if it's not a legal A.T.A target you should not shoot it and have it set till it is. These folks do it no matter summer or winter. Plain to see, good scores at money shoots, bad scores or below the break point at small, non money shoots.Not rocket science.

    Terry Dean
     
  19. firecracker

    firecracker TS Member

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    Terry, I commend you for your diligence and dedication. That said if you haven't observed the shooter and discussed his poor performances with him/her on the day they occurred you really can't be positive they intentionally shot scores below their norm. For example I am a diabetic and some days my sugar is high and that affects my vision. Sometimes a whole bunch. I will, on those days shoot low B scores even though my norm is high A, I am sure my delegate has no clue of my physical handicaps. cracker
     
  20. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    Funny that firecracker should mention diabetes. I shot pretty well up until early July, and even won a couple.

    I was diagnosed with diabetes in early July, and I had trouble breaking 80 for about 2 months until I got it under control. If you looked at my averages and applied some of your fancy "statistical analysis", you would have decided I was tuning my averages for the Grand.

    You would have been wrong.

    So I repeat my question: Earl, if you know for certain that anybody is cheating, turn them in. The ATA has a complaint process that you could use to "clean up the sport", if you're actually serious about it. But it's a lot easier to throw around crazy accusations than it is to do anything about it. Loose talk is cheap. Put up or shut up.
     
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