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Setting trap doubles

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by 320090T, Jul 20, 2008.

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  1. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    The rule book states doubles should be set at a minumum of 44 yards in still air. I placed a stake at 44 yards and use a 10' height stake with a radar gun setting at 39 mph on the right bird. They fall short of the 44 yard stake by a yard or so. Should we go with distance or speed. I am leaning towards removing the distance stake, makes it easier to mow too.
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Use speed. I do not ever recall setting doubles when the air was still and a distance marker was level with the 16 yard line.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Suits me, the stake will be history!
     
  4. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps setting them closer to 9 feet will gain that extra yard you're looking for? We have a Dickens of a time getting people to shoot Doubles, especially when they are short. Those shooters that we do convince to try it quickly find out that they have too much trouble trying to shoot a dropping, curling second-bird and quit in disgust. If it takes a little longer, stronger bird to get the shooters back, then I say do it.

    I prefer to see a doubles bird set longer, not shorter, like back in the day.

    JMHO,
    Kip
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    rule XIII section F for setting doubles.
     
  6. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Just went through this myself at the club. No ata shooting, but I like to have it close. I staked off the 44y min from point B then walked off the radius with a rope. Placed a stake at 20* I know its 17* 20 just made everyone happy. I then walked of 50y radius and staked that 20* Then we set the right bird to land just left of the * marker then adjust until clay lands roughly in the middle. about 47 48 yards. We do not have a radar gun. Oh yeah we set Height of target at 10'. this also is the happy medium. We have a pat trap. Now that yardage markers are set and our machine is working right. We just set the doubles notch crank up the band 7 to 10 cranks and see where it lands. PS we have marked our stakes with small bushes.
     
  7. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Remove the distance stakes and set the spring by speed. IMO......the sooner we remove the old distance rules from the rulebook and throw away the stakes.....the sooner we'll have good consistent targets at all registered shoots.

    John C. Saubak
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    AJ- Absolutely make adjustments for wind. This requires someone with a little experience setting and shooting doubles.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Big Jack

    Big Jack Well-Known Member

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    Set a center line single, add about 7 to 8 turns to the spring or rubber band whichever it may be, bump the machine angle up to about 24 degrees (Set with magnetic protracter) on the machine plate, flip the machine over to doubles, you should be darn close. You may have to tweak the right bird height just a bit with the finger and maybe bump the field a bit right or left to center the pair. It works for me! Equals a 9 1/2 foot + target with a 39MPH right target.

    Big Jack
     
  10. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Ireland:

    320090T started this discussion explaining, "... doubles should be set at a minumum of 44 yards in still air. I placed a stake at 44 yards and use a 10' height stake with a radar gun setting at 39 mph on the right bird. They fall short of the 44 yard stake by a yard or so. Should we go with distance or speed."

    You answered, "Use speed. I do not ever recall setting doubles when the air was still and a distance marker was level with the 16 yard line."

    That's a very good point, Pat. Life rarely gives us the near ideal conditions appropriate for target setting when using height and distance stakes.

    Texshooter later wrote, "... we set them (doubles targets) by speed and angle, Do we make any adjustment for the effect of wind on the targets?"

    You responded to his question, "... Absolutely make adjustments for wind. This requires someone with a little experience setting and shooting doubles."

    I'm in total agreement with both of your comments. However, I fall off the sled with the implied conclusion that speed/radar guns are somehow superior to stakes or result in better set targets than using stakes.

    On any given day, whatever less than idea circumstances one would deal with setting targets using stakes, are the very same circumstances one would deal with setting targets with a speed gun. Assuming any significant wind for example, either method requires the target setting crew to make adjustments in order to achieve 'decent targets' - however decent might be defined.

    In my limited experience, targets - particularly doubles targets - set with a speed guns are invariably too soft, too short and too dumpy. If there's a tail wind, they're also unreasonably tall (rainbows) in a typically unsuccessful effort to keep them in the air long enough to shoot. The result is a lot of exposed face which maximizes the adverse effect of the wind. It also results in a second target that drops like a rock.

    Some extra spring is a great help in mitigating the adverse effect of wind from any direction. It also increases target speed. It appears to me that those who set targets with a speed gun operate as if target speed is the 'one and only, be all end all' variable. They seem loath to jack up the spring a bit even when more shootable targets would result.

    The bottom line? The worst doubles targets I shoot all year are those set with speed guns.

    sissy
     
  11. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    AJ

    Note I didn't say anything about setting by "angle"------I don't believe that's the way to go. And, I'm not talking about just doubles targets here.

    I believe the best (most consistent) targets are easily obtainable setting spring by speed and height by height (not angle). Think about it?......what are we looking for? How fast the targets are going and how high they're flying for the first 20 yards or so........after THAT, who cares how far they'd go? Let the pieces fall wherever.......Yeah, you make adjustments for wind. That's because you measure height at 10 yards, not 20....that's why the rules specify a range of 8' to 10', so you can set 'em for that ideal height at 20 yards out regardless of the wind and still be legal.

    Now, I'm not suggesting that good targets can't be set using the old distance rules......a GOOD target setter can set good targets by which ever rules he has to work with, but FAR too many yokels who THINK they're target setters set by distance stakes when they don't understand the distance rules nor the distance rule's limitations and don't even have the foggiest if those "50 yard stakes" that ol' Joe pounded in the ground back in '63 are actually the correct distance? & FAR too many of 'em just IGNORE the part of the distance rule about "-----on level ground-----". I've seen targets set to drop at the base of "the stake" approx 15 feet below the level of the trap. These were ATA registered targets BTW.

    I do agree with "sissy" in that IMO, doubles set at 39 mph (right target) are a little soft. But that's the current rules so that's where I'll set 'em.

    John C. Saubak
     
  12. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Set them so they look good. That's what counts in my book. HMB
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    If I can get the agreement of the BOD this year at the Grand, next year the rule will read: a minimum of 42 MPH for singles and handicap, a minimum of 39 MPH for the right bird in doubles. In the latter case, that will open things up for 46-yard doubles, which I agree are better for most shooters.

    Neil
     
  14. Superdog1

    Superdog1 TS Member

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    Neil- if you go to the MPH designation, how do the small clubs justify the expense of the radar gun? Targets have been set, shot and argued about for years before speed was ever a factor ( measured with a radar gun that is), and I do not see any advantage of making speed the only way to set double targets. What is wrong with distance stakes? They have worked for years. I have seen the radar gun used correctly, and incorrectly- the same problems faced with distance stakes are faced with a radar gun. The origional poster has called his targets legal by his radar gun, and I have seen them drop 15 feet outside of the trap house. Speed seems to set a "soft" target, and in certain instances, the speed may be right, but a head wind will knock them down. I guess I just do not understand why we must use the radar gun.
     
  15. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse Member

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    Put my vote in the column where a longer distance double target is better. I think the target is more hittable because it stays in the air longer without falling.

    Radar guns are not and should not be the final word in setting targets. They should be used like any other helpful tool. If I set my Right target at 39 MPH, even in still air in the morning, I am still throwing (according to the ATA Rule Book) short targets. Yes, I have checked them while the fog is still hanging in the air. I am even thinking about putting a stake measuring the height of the doubles target to make sure I am throwing the absolute best double targets I can throw.

    I’m just not into throwing soft targets (Doubles or Singles) for those people who need them to break a good score. What I am into is, giving the shooter the best legal target, given the wind conditions, I can possibly throw.

    My gosh.....I thinking about putting more stakes out in the field. THAT PROVES IT!!! Atterbury S.R. has driven me totally crazy.

    Mark
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    It is clearly possible to set bad targets using either a radar gun or distance steaks and it is possible to set good doubles targets with either method. Both methods require someone who understands what they are doing. With a strong tailwind, setting the right bird at 41 MPH and watching it land at 40 yards can result in good targets. The suggested speed of 39 MPH is the minimum speed and 44 yards is the ideal distance only on level ground with no wind.

    I usually like doubles set at 10 feet high 10 yards from point B, but with a head wind, this is too high. Regrettably, in the Blue Ridge Mountains, the wind is variable. The best I can do is set the doubles so that some are too low, some are too high and some are good. It is not uncommon for the surface wind to be blowing from North to South and at 50 feet above the ground, the wind can be blowing from East to West with eddy currents rotating between these two wind directions. And, the wind directions seem to change every few minutes. Setting good doubles can become a real challenge. The distance markers and radar guns help set the targets, but they are not the final answer.

    Pat Ireland

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    OK, so the rules say. You can set targets by distance or speed but nor both? This is a tad confusing. EX. your field is true and level in regards to trap throwing arm. This said. Target is set at 9' when thrown hits the 44y marker just about ground level, legal target?. Now say the "speed" if checked is below min or above max. If the targets are set by Distance how does the speed rule apply also viceversa. Point is if you set by distance then check speed with gun you are violating the rule XIII.

    At what point from the trap house is the radar gun picking the speed of the target?

    on going issue at our club is speed of target. I really do not think any one can tell by sight if the target is going 40 or 50 mph with out seeing it land. We do not have a radar gun so this point is useless at our club.

    If you field and stakes a properly set up, height and distance is well with in the rules.

    our club we set the trap (no ata shooting) early am as calm as possible. we do not adjust for wind. makes for a challenging day
     
  18. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    We have found here in the Northeast that 42 and 39 mph with a ProSpeed gun is the minimum, especially if you have some of Pat's swirling winds. Any sizeable trap facility will almost always have wind issues. Shoot well and often, Bob
     
  19. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Get some of your experienced doubles shooters and set the targets by sight on a calm day. Adjust them to their collective liking, let them shoot 50 pair each, re-adjust if necessary. When they say they like them, measure the speed/distance, and use those numbers for future reference. The shooters might be surprised at the speed and distance they chose. Just a thought....
     
  20. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Gentlemen:

    A closer review of the applicable ATA rules is probably in order.

    Section XIII, Subsection F defines the "required" speed for the right target of a doubles pair as "39 mph plus or minus 0.5 mph." This requirement applies to low-power guns where readings are taken from inside the house as well as for high power-guns where readings are taken from the 16 yard line.

    Section XIII, Subsection E defines standards for proper target heights and distances. That text includes the following statements:

    "Targets shall be between 8 feet and 12 feet high, when 10 yards from Point B. The recommended height is 9 or 9 1/2 feet."

    "In doubles shooting, targets shall be thrown not less than 44 nor more than 51 yards."

    Notice the rules don't describe 44 yards doubles as 'ideal' or even 'recommended'. They merely meet the minimum legal distance.

    Understand I'm not suggesting 9 foot 51 yard targets are my idea of wonderful. However, just once I'd like to shoot something other than the short little dumpy doubles I ALWAYS seem to get when they're set with a radar gun regardless of conditions.

    End of whine.

    sissy
     
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