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SCTP vs. AIM

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Robb, Dec 17, 2008.

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  1. Robb

    Robb Member

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    I see that the ATA has adopted the AIM program. What about it is different than SCTP? SCTP around here appears to be thriving and I'm curious why there is a need for two. Neil?
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    SCTP appears to be moving from registered trap. AIM promotes registered trap.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. Robb

    Robb Member

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    Thanks Pat. I didn't know SCTP was getting away from registered. Why are they doing that? I'm not involved just wondering. Robb Harper
     
  4. roger8918

    roger8918 Member

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    Pat, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, it is my understanding that the SCTP is not moving away from registered target. They will still require a membership in the ATA and all of the State Championship targets will be registered. Same as always. I do however agree with you statement that AIM is promoting, or maybe a better word is requiring, registered target.

    Roger Beardsley
    Mason-Dixon Clay Busters
     
  5. hoosier

    hoosier TS Member

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    I think I am correct, if not I am sure someone will correct me. SCTP would only commet to shooting registered targets for this target year. The ATA wanted to have a program going so they would not be left without a program for the kids after 2009.
     
  6. roger8918

    roger8918 Member

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    Hi Gary, hope all is well. I guess we will need to start making some choices.
     
  7. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    Is there a new SCTP website?

    I was looking, but can't find anything. I was trying to do some more research myself.

    The coaches from our team have said that we were going to stay SCTP, I wish everyone could get along.... There are enough challenges we are going to be facing in this sport splitting up our kids is not going to make it any easier.

    SW
     
  8. McD

    McD TS Member

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    -"It is my understanding that the ATA's New AIM Program will require all practice sessions to be registered targets."-

    What would ever lead anyone to believe that "practice targets" are required to be registered. Which, by the way, are NOT required to be registered. The ATA has no rule for youth or adult that would make such a requirement. It is irresponsible to throw doubt on a program that has it's guidelines posted on it's website, aim4ata.com. I suggest that you then ask the SSSF what are their rules and where are they posted as they pertain to the 2010 shooting year.
    One final point is that the ATA reportedly spent $60,000 on the two days of the SCTP competition at the Grand in 2007. Care to make a wager on whether that was a money making venture for the ATA? The ATA is the national governing body of the sport we call trap and it is naturally going to advance the sport of trap. If you are a "coach" you would better serve your youth team by doing the research before running down a program that will make welcome all SCTP shooters AND teams to the competitive venues. The contact information is on the website for you to personally contact the powers that be in the AIM program and I suggest you do just that before making any future uninformed statements that do nothing to advance youth shooting sports.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Shooting Year,
    Jim McDiffett
    ATA Coach #000001
     
  9. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Jim & Mr. Charles,

    The real question here will be which group will your state association support. We will be discussing this matter at our January BOD meeting for the Indiana Trapshooters Association and I think it would be hard for the State Associations to not support the AIM program. I don't have a vote in this matter, but the ITA has usually covered the target expense for the SCTP shooters in the past. Now we have to make a decision as to whether we will be hosting the AIM state championship or the SCTP state championship. With deadlines fast approaching for programs and the fact that BODs don't have a lot of free time laying around to meet on a whim about this matter, I would think most state associations would be deciding what they will do in January or February. Couple the fact that the AIM program is sponsored by the ATA and that 3SF has not produced any concrete information (that I know of), the decision of which program to support may be pretty clear cut.

    If anyone has any concrete info from 3SF about SCTP (other than Mr. Christy's letter sent about 2 months ago), please let us know. 3SF is supposed to formally take over the SCTP from NSSA on 01/01/09, so maybe we will not see any info until then....

    John
     
  10. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    You are telling me that 300 registered target to qualify for the State and 500 for the Grand are too many when youth shooters usually shoot for 1/2 price. What happened to working some odd jobs to get your shooting money?? What happened to your group having some fund raisers?? What happened to your kids working at shoots or at the club?? What happened to finding a sponsor or a partial sponsor for your team or shooter??? It is called getting off your butt and making it happen or are you waiting for someone to do it for you??

    All I hear are excuses.

    Don
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    gn- It would be very simple for any coach to register targets at any club any day or night of the week. If you call your state secretary, he most likely would do much of the 15 minutes work for you. The cost of the targets so not have to be any greater than the cost of practice targets and the $1.50 ATA fee. Many states would wave the daily state fee for such a shoot. If not, then it would cost another +-$2. The total cost of the daily fees is about what a snack at McDonald's would cost.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    BIGDON hit the target on a number things. The one thing that has bothered me in the past was having to struggle to get trap help for our shoots. When I approached the person in charge of SCTP in our area I received no help. The kids would have been paid which in turn helps defray their cost. All of us older people learned to love this game through volunteering(No Pay)scoring, loading houses, and trap machines. With todays system, voice calls and autoloading traps, the work is much easier and you can't find kids to do it. Shame on us as a Society for what we've created. Bob
     
  13. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    In any case, two programs going in different directions...

    Still waiting for the ATA to announce a reduction in daily fees for AIM shooters, or do most not think it's warranted!
     
  14. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    I have not yet delved into the costs of everything (project for the weekend after Christmas), but as for the registered targets -- if your club can get some sort of reduced rate on registered birds and the kids can shoot 50 targets per week (Big 50) -- then I could see approximate costs for registering the targets break down like this: (example for Indiana)

    $10 (high side) - cost for for registered bird per 50.
    $2 - daily ATA and ITA fees per 50.
    Shells -- they would have to shoot shells if they practiced or not. I have seen rumors that SCTP would not allow reloads in competition while the ATA will.

    So, they need 300 targets before the state shoot. This would be 6 weeks of Big 50 or $72. In Indiana, the SCTP (could be AIM in 2009) have thier targets paid for -- all they have to pay is the daily fee. That would be $4 for 200 targets. They now have enough targets to shoot nationals at a cost of $76 for 500 targets, or $15.20 per 100. I know at our club, we were charging around $2-$2.50 per round for practice targets and typically, the kids practiced for 8-12 weeks. So for the 6 weeks of registered targets would cost an extra $48.

    This is all assuming that the cost of registered targets would be $10 per 50. I could forsee that if the coaches would help in filling out the paperwork and filing the records, that the cost of registering the targets could drop to $7-8 per 50. If it would get down to $7 per 50, then the costs of registering the targets versus just going out to practice would be $30.

    Once I can delve into both programs (and hopefully have some more detailed info from 3SF, if not, I will go off the info from the letter), I will post a side by side comparison of costs to see what the real difference between the two programs are.

    John
     
  15. clayman51

    clayman51 Member

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    Kentucky Coaches,

    You can contact me any time at 859-635-7221 and I will be glad to talk to you about the AIM program.

    Thanks

    Dennis Menning

    Kentucky AIM Director
     
  16. Jim Matt

    Jim Matt TS Member

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    Mr. Charles,

    Where did you hear that the SCTP is the official program for Illinois? My name is Jim Matteson. I am the President of the Illinois Trapshooters Association. I am also the Illinois Delegate. We had an ISTA meeting last week and determined that at this point we would let the youth and their parents decide. As the ATA Delegate, I would support the AIM Program. As a life long trapshooter, I support anything that gets the kids involved with the sport. I read these posts every day, but I only respond when necessary. It is necessary that there is no misunderstanding that there is no "official" program for Illinois.
     
  17. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong......

    For the last target year the State SCTP shoot was 200 targets and they were registered. If a kid went to nationals he shot another 200 targets and those also were registered.

    Sounds to me like if they shot at both events the 300 target requirement for this years state shoot is satisfied. If they shoot at their state shoot this year and book another 200 registered targets won't that be 600 targets in the last year and satisfy the requirement for nationals?

    either way - 100 targets at junior prices is pretty cheap - it's actually cheaper than shooting a SCTP event!

    I'm a big fan of the junior programs but i fear the change to AIM/SSSF will split the resource and dilute the program's effectiveness....but that's just me.
     
  18. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    If the requirement for AIM or SCTP is 300 and 500 in the SAME target year then that is onerous.

    What is wrong with 300 or 500 in this year or the preceding year?

    Then the kids would be covered.

    A LOT of kids don't shoot anything but scholastic so putting a registered target requirement out there is milking it in my opinion.
     
  19. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    As one who belongs to a club with one of the largest SCTP's in the nation, I see where both sides are coming from.

    One side (SCTP) wants cheap targets, and who needs to shoot Registered? The volunteer Coaches should not have to pay an arm and leg to donate their time and resources. Reloads are not allowed because there have been several incidents with them.

    We do not allow reloads to be used at the collegiate shoots and practices I coach, because of the same reason.

    The other side (AIM) wants the ATA to be included in shooting. The other side has reservations about the new owner of the SCTP and wants to have a safety net JUST IN CASE.

    Here, the State Association paid for the trap machines where the State Shoot is typically held. A former ATA Delegate (Charlie Morrison, along with his son) personally installed them for free. IIRC, they also supplied needed tools and materials for this. A BIG tip of the hat to Charlie and Jr. :^)

    Also, Charlie, while President of the club where the traps where installed, made improvements to the club, put money in the bank, and even managed to get some of our bank loan paid off. (gasp) A very savvy Manager was also brought on board while Charlie was at the helm. Thanks, Charlie!

    Anyhow, does the State Association not deserve daily fees for the (intense) use of their machines (and Canterbury's)? We are talking about a commercial truckload of new Pat Traps, and another van load of CVR's. The figure I heard was right at $65K. Does our Association not deserve a few pennies thrown their way for this?

    Finally, I see a great number of single parents working a second job just so their kid can shoot. Grand Parents often buy the gun. A 14 year old can not be expected to pay their way on this. I have nothing but respect and admiration for those parents and Grands who go above and beyond the call for the kids.

    It is, indeed, an honor to be a part of this.

    Instead of parting ways, we should hang together on this. This is not for us, but is for the next generation of shooters and champions.
     
  20. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Am I reading that a youth shooter, or team of shooters, must have 300 targets to be able to shoot the state shoot?
     
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