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SCTP - Hand Picked Teams

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Sideline, Aug 7, 2008.

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  1. Sideline

    Sideline TS Member

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    SCTP needs to address the issue of hand picked teams. The six practices rule is not a limitation to creating super-teams, there has to be a better method of promoting the sport without creating super-teams. Ideas?
     
  2. Sideline

    Sideline TS Member

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    A true team I would think would have members from the same area surrounding a gun club...some of these teams have members living hundreds of miles apart but still in the same state. What are the "team" membership requirements? Just 6 practices make a team? What rule prevents for example the top 5 junior or sub-junior shooters all from the same state becoming a team? 6 practices?
     
  3. Sideline

    Sideline TS Member

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    SCTP needs to address the issue of hand picked teams. The six practices rule is not a limitation to creating super-teams, there has to be a better method of promoting the sport without creating super-teams. Ideas?
     
  4. Sideline

    Sideline TS Member

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    A true team I would think would have members from the same area surrounding a gun club...some of these teams have members living hundreds of miles apart but still in the same state. What are the "team" membership requirements? Just 6 practices make a team? What rule prevents for example the top 5 junior or sub-junior shooters all from the same state becoming a team? 6 practices?
     
  5. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Some clubs and programs place a great deal of importance in working with the youths to inprove their scores. I do not believe it is a matter of selectivley picking teams, but more the effort by the clubs, coaches and supporters of working very very hard to assist the young shooters in achieving their personal best. We had a winner at the Grand a few years ago. And I know it is not a hand picked squad, but rather one that worked really hard to achieve their goals. And one of that team ultimately was an All American the next 3 years running. - Jim
     
  6. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    Jim,
    I totally agree, Clubs also include honesty with working with the youth. If teams, coaches and/or clubs cherry pick..... i pity them. Those kids will have to live the rest of their lives... knowing if they won or even competed, they did it under false witness. WHAT coach or club would subject them to that. You can what if the thing to death. Yes.. short run win.. but a life time of...... I cheated to win.
    We as Adults set the example for our young people. Our Clubs should be using a Coach of High Standards. Teach by example. I know that I will sleep good for the nights to come. WILL YOU???????

    Jim that last sentence doesnt pertain to you... just a comment for all to read.

    Respectfully,
    WesleyB
     
  7. Big Dave

    Big Dave Member

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    I have worked with several SCTP teams, and one actually had coaches and parents going to major shoots within the state and recruiting shooters. I quickly disassociated myself with that team and am glad to say they no longer exist as a team.
     
  8. FRedmon

    FRedmon Active Member

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    What teams are you talking about?

    FRedmon
     
  9. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    I am a big fan of SCTP but this one thing has always nagged at me.

    Why is SCTP a team sport?

    The only knock on the SCTP program comes back to this one bone of contention.

    Shooting is an individual sport. Please demonstrate to me how the kids benefit from shooting as a squad.

    Here in California we have a great program and it is very successful - from February through June the kids all shoot in events as individuals, the awards are presented to individual winners. The kids register and shoot as a squad but that makes no difference. Then when we get to the State Championship all of a sudden the event is team based.

    It doesn't work. I see more teams ripped apart by this team requirement than are built up.

    Okay - I've slipped into my flame retardant undies so fire away.
     
  10. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    SCTP -- SCHOLASTIC CLAY TARGET PROGRAM

    Wildcat, no need to fire away here, but I have only one question, have you read the SCTP handbook? When you open it up there are 28 pages of the intent of the SCTP and it's mission to build and promote teamwork. The word "individual" is not even listed in the glossary, but "team" and "valid squad" are.

    I am from Wisconsin, and our local SCTP program is run by the local conservation club and supported by our school district. I am proud to say 4 of the 5 members of our Varsity squad are all classmates at our high school and the 5th is a member of the conservation club who attends a school only a few miles away.

    Our shooters actually earn a letter the same as football or wrestling. IMO, this is the way it should be.

    We have over 50 kids on the team and we team based from start to finish. The only thing individual is those with the highest scores shoot on the same squad. Our coaches promote safety, sportsmanship, respect and teamwork every week. Oh and they actually help them with shooting skills too!

    I would ask the opposite questions of California? I don't read anywhere in the handbook about shooting as individuals, then squading up for state and national events? That sounds like an invitation to hand-pick and stack the teams.

    As far as I'm concerned if you wanna shoot by yourself... Go shoot ATA events.

    I am proud of the teamwork and lessons that my son is learning now, it will make him a better individual later in life. At 13 he is a better shooter than his father, lets just see how it goes when the birds have feathers on them this fall!!

    SW
     
  11. schockstrap

    schockstrap Active Member

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    Forgive my ignorance (haven't read the SCTP manual), but this whole issue of building teams appears to be completely arbitrary... If you have 50 kids come out from the local school, do you not do some sort of selection process to determine who will shoot on the "varsity" squad? What if only 3 kids come out from the local school? Do you not go try to find at least 2 more kids from "somewhere" to make a team? Anyone that didn't like you could define those actions as "cherry picking".

    Aren't there always some school districts that are better-funded, more residents, higher property values (meaning higher tax revenues) than others? Wouldn't those kids be more likely to be able to practice more?

    Frankly, I think it's all a bunch of crap. Field the best team that you can. Practice as much as you are able. Shoot. Have fun. There is always going to be a team out there that has better/more resources. That doesn't mean that they will win -- just like the Yankees don't win the world series every year. If they do win, they shot better than you did. Shake their hands, hold your head high. It makes no sense to hold a competition and then expect people to not look for a competitive advantage. If the thought of losing eliminates your desire to compete you are going to have a very difficult life.

    --Dan
     
  12. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    Well Dan, you got the ignorance part right. I don't know how you can be a "big fan" if you don't even know what the program stands for?

    As suggested by Charles, why don't you read the handbook? You can download a copy of it right here: http://www.nssf.org/sctp/index.cfm

    Once you read it and if you don't agree with the intent of the program.... Go shoot somewhere else. This is a free country. (Well at least till Obama and Pelosi start ruling us all.)

    To answer your questions on squading, the team is broken into grade (6 to 8, and 9 to 12) and experience groups. The kids shoot "league type" rounds to establish an average and the top 5 averages are Varsity I, next 5 are Varsity II etc. Those squads shoot together each week to learn and grow as a team. If you want to move up, you have to practice more, shoot better and get your average up to move yourself into the better squad. It's pretty simple, the team starts shooting together early in the spring and stays together all year long, but squads may change depending on averages.

    I understand there are many areas that do not have SCTP programs or enough interested kids to support a full program, but as I understand it you are supposed to shoot at the program nearest to where you live and not one 250 miles away passing two other established programs because there are better shooters there and you have a sponsor who will cover your expenses to get you to events to boost the scores.

    Does your local high school bring running backs and linebackers in from three counties away just during playoff games to make your football team better?

    SW
     
  13. schockstrap

    schockstrap Active Member

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    Never said I was a big fan. In fact, what I've heard in whining over the past few years really has me wondering if SCTP will be worth the trouble for my kids when they are old enough. I'll read the manual when it comes time for my son to choose whether or not to participate. The rules appear to change every 6 months anyway, so it'll be a whole new set by that time. Right now I'm offering an opinion on all of these posts about cherry picking that are just silly.

    There are plenty of high school teams that operate in the fashion that you mentioned (think private schools that don't receive funding by district). It's going to happen. Big deal. They're all still teenagers -- it's not like anyone is asking a high school team to play against a pro team. When I played in college, my Division III team played Division I teams every year... Scholarship players against players that were out there competing for nothing. We beat more than half of those teams -- we wanted it more.

    I guess I'm just a competitive person. If someone tells me I can't beat another team because they're all "ringers", I'm going to make them prove it. I may lose, but so what? That just means they were better than me that day -- who knows what will happen the next time.

    SCTP stands for Scholastic Clay Target Program, nothing more, nothing less. If all your kids get out of the program is the national competition at least let them learn what competition is all about. I suspect they care much more about what they learn during the rest of the year than they do about that last competition.

    --Dan
     
  14. Ellen

    Ellen TS Member

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    As the past Alabama SCTP State Director it never ceases to amaze me that this subject continues to come up year after year. One particular year I actually had an ATA Delegate from another state infer that the Alabama Team that won the SCTP National competition was a "cherry picked team" because none of the boys went to the same high school. It just so happened that they all lived in and around the only trap club near any of them. They practiced every evening after school(not just 6 times as the SCTP Handbook says)- which was a hardship for the parents till the boys were able to drive themselves to practice. That team also shot together at other registered ATA events and worked hard to earn their national trophy.
    This year was also a National Championship for an Alabama Team that has been shooting together since they were a Junior Team in grade school. They too have worked very hard to achieve their National Championship status. My hope and dream is that maybe they can return next year and win again, which would really be a unique achievement.
    Yes, the SCTP is all about TEAM work, and not individual achievements. It is meant to build character,teach safety,and a healthy competitive nature for the sport of trap shooting. This is a sport that these youth can take with them into their adult years and win events as individuals. This is a sport you can enjoy forever. This is a sport you can set aside for years (due to college, marriage, etc) and then pick it back up when you decide to.
    I wish that some adults in this sport would quit acting like children. There are going to be cheaters no matter what. The NSSF Staff do their best to weed these individuals out but obviously some slip through the cracks. If you have a legitimate complaint speak to the NSSF staff or your state director. I promise you it will be investigated to the fullest extent.
    Just my 2 cents worth,
    Ellen
     
  15. Nebraskashooter

    Nebraskashooter Member

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    Schockstrap; What sport did you play?
     
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