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SCTP Coaches - 2008 rule change comments

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by buster's mom, Jun 25, 2008.

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  1. buster's mom

    buster's mom Member

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    Effective this year, only one substitution is allowed on any squad that qualified to shoot at the Grand this year. The problem we are facing is that 2 of our squads qualified at the Ohio State Shoot and neither of these teams will be able shoot at the Grand based on this rule change. We did our best to field a squad that would be eligible based on this rule, but some of the squad members have decided because of personal reasons, they can no longer attend. Now we have 11 kids that can go, but not all of them were on either of those 2 squads. We could still group the kids by age and experience and field a squad, but according to the rules, they would be disqualified and their scores wouldn't be counted. My husband called the NSSF and was told that they could still go, but they would have to shoot just for the fun and experience. We still plan on going, and have our two daughters shoot in later events, but that doesn't help the kids that don't have that opportunity. I thought the whole idea behind the SCTP was to encourage kids to love the sport, not discourage them!! What are your thoughts on this topic? I guess everyone could still go and hope to hide the fact that they are not following the rules, but what would that be teaching our kids? What a Shame!!
     
  2. buster's mom

    buster's mom Member

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    Now that some of you have read this post, are we missing something in the interpretation of these rules? Last year we had 25 kids squad and shoot at the Grand with the 2 substitution rule. Our state shoot is in June, so you have to make your squad decisions 2 months in advance of the Grand. Now we are committed to follow those rules based on the 1 substitution rule. There is no open squadding at the Grand like our State Shoot. I'm sure we are not the only team faced with this dilema after talking to other coaches in our state. So now we have 4 choices, 1# Don't go to SCTP event, 2# Shoot for fun with scores that don't count, 3# ignore the rule, and hope not to get caught, or #4 Contact the NSSF and discuss what a hardship this places on our kids. We have chosen #1 and #4. I am not a coach, just a very disappointed mom of two girls that this rule effects.
     
  3. littlebear

    littlebear TS Member

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    I believe the rules have been put in place to prevent "Cherry Picking" a great squad just for the Grand. Why didn't you get a pledge to attend the Grand when you formed the team? What the kids might learn is that the do need to depend on everyone on their team to live up to the goals set by the team.
     
  4. Chris_H

    Chris_H Member

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    Let's keep this at the top and maybe if enough phone calls or emails are made they will consider revising the rules to allow some more teams to compete. You would think with the decline in shooting the NSSF and SCTP would do all they can to get as many kids to participate as possible. I think the biggest problem with the rule is it will affect only those who follow them and the cheaters will still find ways to cheat.

    Chris Hevener (SCTP coach)
     
  5. buster's mom

    buster's mom Member

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    DTD-
    We did try to get each and every kid to commit from the time we started practice in March. Even up to last week we had more kids still committed to go. But some of the other older kids got jobs for the summer to pay for their shooting and now aren't able to get off work to attend. Then you have the younger shooters whose families face the cost of gas, taking off work, and just the added expenses to attend that they hadn't planned for prior to the kids winning. And as far as the Cherry Pickers, no rule they come up with will stop them from cheating in other ways. So who are they really hurting? Only the people who actually plan on following the rules in the first place.
     
  6. buster's mom

    buster's mom Member

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    DTD-
    What type of pledge do you suggest we come up with? Are you a coach, and if so, what pledge works for you. We had a similar situation happen last year at our state shoot, so this year we insisted on having the kids pay up front prior to our state shoot to make sure we had their commitment and didn't let down their squads. Our home club throws free targets for the kid's practices to defer the cost for them to shoot. We try to make an attempt to allow all the kids to participate no matter what their personal situations are. If they had just left the two substitution rule stand, we wouldn't even be having this thread posted. The NSSF needs to use more of their resource people to field ideas and comments before they write new rules.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    buster's mom- I am not directly involved with the SCTP program, but I can comment on pledges to participate. If you got six dedicated adult trap shooters pledge to attend the Grand in March, you would be lucky to have four of them attend in August.

    I recall several years ago when a current high ranking SCTP official made a pledge to attend 4 or 6 local league shoots as a team member. But, he couldn't do it and his team suffered.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    The kids and teams you want to penalize are those that are living within the rules. Is it fair that you pick up 2 kids and beat those who played by the rules?? I have seen the same rule applied to other youth sports. The problem with rules is that someone always feels that they are being treated unfairly. If the rules are such that you have to stay together to compete for the team prizes so be it, they can still compete and enjoy the Grand experience.

    You have posted this twice, the other appears to be an attempt to discourage a young man from going to the Grand with his team.

    These things are always a bigger issue to the adults then to the kids.

    Don
     
  9. buster's mom

    buster's mom Member

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    Don-

    It was never my intent to discourage that young man. Infact, just the opposite. I wanted to encourage him and others that if you get a chance to shoot with your squad, GO!, and don't let your squad mates down. I apologize if that is how it comes across. Believe me, picking up two kids vs. one kid wouldn't effect the outcome of how our kids place. It would just give 11 kids that truely want to go, have a chance to shoot as a squad that could count vs. seeing it as just a few practice rounds. These same kids have attended the Grand in Sparta for the last two years and just want to compete vs. participate.
     
  10. Chris_H

    Chris_H Member

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    My only issue with it is now team competition is over for our kids when they are really just starting to get into it unless we take them to the Michigan Fall Team Shoot but that isn't until September. Some of the kids only opportunity to be truly competitive is to be on a team with a a few hot shots so that is the only way their parents can justify paying fuel, lodging and all the other costs with going to Sparta for a few days. I understand the fairness thing but why would you not field your best team for your state shoot. It doesn't make a whole lot of since to "sandbag" at the state shoot and not get a trophy and then go to the Grand with your best team and win the whole thing. I think NSSF missed the boat on this one and needs to get a set of rules and stick with them rather than change all the time. I know in previous years it was the one sub rule but in previous years you also had to earn you spot at the Grand American. Now they want everyone to participate but make it difficult for them to do so.
     
  11. Stuart

    Stuart Member

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    My problem with the folks that imposed this and other rules do not think things thru. A situtation arises and come coach or parent complains about the 2 man sub rule, so we change the rules and limit it to one man sub. Next there is a situtation in Tenn where a coach cherry picked two intermediate shooters and put them on a varsity squad. He wins and others complain. So we change the rule overnight , can't put Intermediate shooters on a JV. or Varsity Squad. Result is if you don't have five intermediate shooters you cant shoot. Now this really goes against the grain.
    When the SCTP failed to renew Dr. Christy's contract as advisor and desided they had all the experence that was needed, the made a large mistake.
    Zach has made rule changes the same day he enforced the old rule.I had a young lady he wouldn't let shoot the Grand on a make-up squad at 4PM and at 5PM he made make up squads without telling us.
    There is a lot this organization needs to work on. They fired there last voice of reason.
    Stuart
     
  12. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Ah this saddens me so much ... what would the poor children do if they were adults and there adult friends had problems and could not go either?

    Seems like a good life lesson can be learned from this that not all times do things work out and you sometimes get screwed and learn to live with it and deal with the problems.

    So you think they should change everything so they can go? There aint nothing stopping them from going and participating but just not being able to compete.

    As a mommy you should be ashamed of yourself and the life lessons you propose at teaching those youngsters by your option #3 and regarding your option #4 why not let the children call, it is all about them and if they heard an educated well spoken child calling to lodge a complaint it would probably have far more merit than a complaining and nagging mother. Be sure the children mention how it effects them but be sure that the emphasize how it might effect a mass of people ... kind of steer the effect to everyone so they dont come across as a couple of complaing and nagging children.

    Please let us know what happens ... and what good life lessons are learned other than if ya cry and moan enough things might change and thats how you suggest the children get through life ... great role mentoring.
     
  13. blooper

    blooper TS Member

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    check the ATA website and see how many of these SCTP decision makers are paid members of the ATA
     
  14. buster's mom

    buster's mom Member

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    No Mr. Newbius, I am not ashamed of myself. We have raised 3 daughters (2 of which shoot) to give back to the sport and support their team mates. All three work at our local club during register shoots. The two that shoot rose to the occasion and help scored for the shoot offs at our State Shoot last week because the other scorers couldn't work past mid-night and had already worked a 12 hour day. So as you can see, they are not just spoiled brats crying because they can't compete. They are sad because it effects their friends. They will both still compete later in the week. The lesson they are learning is not to break the rules at any cost and rules can be reconsidered and changed if you contact the people responsible for making them.
     
  15. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    You have great kids ... there father must be a fantastic person but there ... well ... um ... they still sound like great kids and to bad they cant shoot in the precious SCTP special events.

    Ya know maybe they should go and have a little session with there friends that screwed them over ... a little childish justice might make them feel good.
     
  16. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Which one of your daughters is named Buster?
     
  17. trapwife

    trapwife Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Newbius, you obviously don't know this family or you wouldn't have posted such scarastic comments. The point of the thread is that "paper work" and "rules" has limited the number of kids who will be able to compete. What a shame that any kid that wants to come and compete can't just show up and shoot. Someone has taken a simple game and made a bureaucatic nightmare out of the whole tournament. Adults who want to come to the Grand don't have to register weeks in advance, the kids shouldn't have to either. We have "team" races at the Grand for the adults in addition to the individual competition, the kids program could be structured the same way. The paperwork is a huge burden on coaches who are already putting in many hours of volunteer time and usually lots of dollars out of their own pocket. We need to find ways to simplify the game so more shooters can particiate.
     
  18. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Ladies, as always, it's best to not feed the TROLLS!!!
     
  19. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    I love scarastic remarks.

    Have you ever maybe kind of thought and wondered that they make it so tremendously difficult for the kids because just possibly they dont want them there and they could really honestly care less about the SCTP program?

    Read between the lines and see what they are actually doing and saying.
     
  20. colobiggun

    colobiggun Active Member

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    I agree with Trapwife 100%!!! This is my daughter's first year of shooting, and she has practiced with an SCTP team for a year before she dove into shooting registered. I would love for her to be able to help out our local SCTP team and compete with them at the Grand, but her first priority is to try and make the All-American team and gain points, which means chasing after the big shoots. The local qualifier was at the same time as one of her scheduled big shoots, so she could not shoot, and cannot shoot with her team. I think she should be able to go to the Grand and compete with her team, as well as compete in other events. The way it is, it didn't work out. I hope they eventually get all of this ironed out, but I'm sure it won't be before she becomes an adult and can no longer compete in the SCTP. It is such a shame, as the SCTP is a great program and a wonderful way to introduce kids to the sport. Why can't things just be kept simple?
     
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