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SCTP and the ATA

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Stuart, Oct 16, 2007.

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  1. Stuart

    Stuart Member

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    I just received some disturbing news about the ATA and their dis reguard for the kids shooting.
    I certainly hope it is one of those false rummors, started by somebody with nothing to do.
    First I learned that the ATA has raised the yearly rate for the Jr and Subjr to $12.00 a year. This from a organization that promised to get a grip on shooting expences. That in itself is no bigge, $3.00 increase. But this come after the ATA only wants the SCTP to Shoot ONE day at next years Grand. Let see, we added two days to the Grand Schedule for the SCTP and then we(ATA) tell them they can some only for one day. Have Fund Raisers, raise money, find sponcers, parents schedule vacation, drive 2000miles and shoot one day.
    Know that is a kick in the groin. What are we doing, killing the partisapation of the young shooters.
    It is bad enough that we as Coachs, have to stand in lines for 4-6 hours to get out teams Squaded, because the ATA messed up, and get double squad numbers do to the people are new and haven't been taught what to do. Get called on the carpet becauce we didn't pay for our double squads, only to find out The ATA screwed up.Then your squad sheets get scored in the third squad number you didn't know about. The ATA has been holding the Grand for 109 years and screw up each and every year.
    Know The ATA tells the SCTP we can only partisapate one day of the Grand and go home.
    For years I have listened about all the ATA has done for youth in Trap Shooting. I have ever contributed to fund raiser the ATA puts on for Youth Shooting. I attended a dinner at this years Grand fot youth shooting. Listened to a old Footballer talk about winning with the New President of the ATA in attendance, and then we tell the SCTP they can only be a part of the Grand ONE DAY.
    I have often reguarded the ATA as a spinless organization after what they did the last two directors, David Bopp and John Norris. Then they waffle on their commitment to the State of Illinois. They open a OFFICE in Sparta and hire two fine people to manage it. Alone comes a PRESIDENT of the ATA and fires them and closes the office. What fine leaders we select to run this organization.
    Mr. Winston you have started off with a BANG.
    It's just lucky I don't get mad and say what I realy think.
    Stuart Wright
    Life Member of the fine group.
     
  2. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    As Jon said if they belong to the ATA, which they do, then whats wrong with them shooting and paying like everyone else. Answer - nothing.

    What's wrong with one day?? Do you have a real problem or do you just want to piss and moan about the ATA.

    Don
    Another Life Member

    Earl; I sure hope you are young enough to wait because it will be a long time before it ever gets to Columbus. Sorry you didn't get a new car and a parade for winning class "b".
     
  3. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    The yearly dues went up for everyone, not just the kids. The Grand runs for almost two weeks and there is nothing that is stopping the kids from shooting each and every one of them.

    I never heard of anyone else standing in lines for that amount of time. Were your cards all in order?

    Just wondering why it took you two months to bring all this to light?

    John
     
  4. Stuart

    Stuart Member

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    john, Believe it or not we were preregestered. That was part of the problem. should have expected this however, the previous year was even worse.
    As far as the kids being able to shoot the complete Grand, that is not the issue. The main reason these kids register with the ATA is just to shoot the Grand. Some will shoot there State shoots etc and register targets but it is not required they shoot registered targets.
    Know that the SCTP will not be participating at the Grand there is absolutely no reason for them to sign up with the ATA at all. The SCTP is holding their own Grand in July and forget any association with the ATA.
    The SCTP will be much better off and the ATA lose's

    TO K80 and others; Yes the kids could shoot with the OLD folks, but they came to compete against other kids and SCTP Teams from around the country. You are missing the point of there Competition. AND if you don't like my spelling...tough. If you spent 5 years starting High School Shooters and assisting 14 other schools in getting shooting programs started, I would bet you would be PISSED also.
     
  5. Mr. Marcy

    Mr. Marcy TS Member

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    You know another thing about the ATA and SCTP involvement, at our state shoot here in Nebraska, which is one of the largest or the largest SCTP shoot anywhere, the ATA is no where to be seen! Think about it, you can get a freakin' membership for your dog, but yet the ATA can't go make the effort at a SCTP shoot! I mean it doesn't take rocket science to figure it out guys. Its almost like the ATA doesn't want to get any new jr/subjr shooters to enroll. I just don't get it, with the ATA losing money I'd have thought they would be making the effort to get new PEOPLE members than your family pet!

    So President Winston I look forward to your answer!

    Mr. Marcy
     
  6. guncase

    guncase TS Member

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    the SCTP program was screwed up before Sparta. I arrived a day early to set up my building at Vandalia the last yr. The day BEFORE the opening for the kids was one of my best sales days. The kids were in to "sign up" and spent the whole day looking for something to do. Finally, about 3:00, the A.T.A. opened a practice trap, actually 2 traps. Can you imagine the cluster$^^%$#^ with 400 kids wanting to shoot and only 2 traps?????

    Some of the coaches stood in line for over 4 hrs to get their kids registered.
    Some of these people drove lots of miles, bringing their other kids cause this was a big thing. Grampa and Grama came to watch, and help pay for this great thing, only to be disappointed in the whole mess. Yes, they can shoot the rest of the Grand,,, but most wouldn't even be shooting if not for the competition with their peers. It was a community thing, even had kids with Guns on school buses!!! What a sight!
    Had some ask me if this was the normal sign up process. How could we put up with it if we shoot every weekend. I tried to make the excuse that they just didn't expect such a great turn out, but it sounded very lame,, even as I said it!!

    I agree with Stuart!! Watched the same screw-ups in Sparta. The A.T.A. is making a large mistake treating the S.C.T.P. as a second class act. They pay dues and fees just like the rest of us.

    If you shooters would have been treated that way,,, you would have been headed home in cloud of dust!!
    As for the presents of the A.T.A. officers at the S.C.T.P. shoots on a state by state basis,, they don't go cause they cannot shoot!! Why waste the time ,, just for a bunch of kids!! Paul
     
  7. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    As one who trains young athletes and their coaches, as well as being the Shooting Coach for a large southern university, I can say we are having growing pains with the SCTP.

    I too have been totally upset with some of the Boo Boos and Uh-Oh's in the program. We have some folks running the program here in Tn that have Texas sized egos and Rhode Island skills. LOL

    However, I try to keep my dignity and just train the kids and those who support them. I salute all the coaches and parents who go out of their way for the kids. I know many single parents who work a second job just to pay for their young ones' gun, bullets, targets, vest, dues, etc. They are to be honored.

    As one who can easily moan and complain about the way the program is going, I try to keep a positive outlook. If I can do it, anyone can.

    Keep your head up, and keep coming to practice and matches with the kids. They NEED you!!!

    I wonder if there are enough traps, help and TIME to have the SCTP at the Grand for one day!!

    If next year is as hot as this year was, we will need to really watch the kids and make sure they stay hydrated.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    This is unfortunately a thread that could have had some positive outcomes if presented correctly, but has now sunk to a level that can only blemish the SCTP.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Earl; You really are a sorry piece of crap. You also don't have a clue of what's going on. Take your dumb wobble idea and keep it where you keep your brains, which you can never find.

    You must think you are the new resident tough guy know it all. Sorry, but you too qualify as a "village idiot".

    Hate to burst you bubble but wobble is about as tough as 16's.

    STPT: The kids and their coaches will persevere in spite of everthing and everybody. The kinks will get worked out. They will continue to get support from ATA shooters, like Jon, and others. Much of which goes unrecognized but most shooters want to help and not recognition. Some of you blast ATA shooters but I see them constantly reaching into their pockets to financialy support youth shooters, I see clubs financialy supporting youth shooters, be careful you don't kill the goose. As far as standing in line, it was only a couple years ago you had to stand in line to squad at the Grand, many times 3 & 4 hours just to classify and squad, this was a yearly event. We accepted it for what it was and you are bitching just because it happen once to you. Sorry life isn't perfect.

    Don
     
  10. clayshooter53

    clayshooter53 TS Member

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    Gentlemen...
    Let's be realistic about this. The SCTP program is a terrific program! It teaches youngsters responsibility, and (hopefully) sportsmanship, and above all safety. As a youth coach in a number of sports as well as working with the youth at my club, the biggest problems I have seen come from the parents and the some of the coaches. Parents can be one of the worst aspects to a sport when they whine and cry about poor "refereeing or umpiring or scoring"; inspite of their dedication to the kids putting up the $$$s to fund their kid's activities. Some parents even revert to violence with other parents and even the referee staff. The old adage of "if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem" just might apply here. You complained that at the grand "only 2 practice traps were made available to the SCTP kids the day before the opening of the grand". Why was this? Were there "paid" puller/scorers used to run the fields? Were voice call systems in use? Why not approach the management and suggest 10 or more additional fields be made available and have "knowledgeable" parents or coaches "run the fields" so more kids can practice. If 12 fields were made available 400 kids could shoot one practice round in a 16 hour period with each squad taking no more than 30 minutes to shoot. As a parent I did everything I could for my son to particiapate in the things he wanted even to the point of being part of the game (I was a soccer coach for 2 years and a referee for 5 years). The hardest thing to do to get help with running a progran from parents is to simply ASK for their help. In most cases a parent will give of the time requested. One question I have about this whole thread is "Where is or was the NSSF staff to assist the ATA with the running of this event at the Grand?" All the blame is being pressed against the ATA. The NSSF is the "parent organization" of the SCTP program, were they there to offer any assistance to registration, running the shooting portion of the event, and finally tabulating the scores to determine winners? There are far too many questions that could be posed about this thread but this space limits them to those just presented. Think about it guys and gals, the coaches and the shooting staff all have big jobs to do running a shoot; any (good) assistance in any aspect of any program would be welcomed by most any organization. Let's change the idea of "YOU gotta..." to "WE must..." and add "is there any thing I can do to help".

    Billy P
    Rochester NY
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    There were eighteen (18) practice traps running the whole day before the SCTP program at the 2007 Grand in Sparta. I know this for a fact. I will be making some phone calls to check on the rest.

    Neil
     
  12. guncase

    guncase TS Member

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    Neil,,, I think you are right about the traps used this year.. But I know that it was as I said in Vandalia for the last yr there. Some of the coaches did try to just get traps open and would provide the needed help. Were told that "they just couldn't do that". It was late in the afternoon when finally there were traps open.

    Pat,, I don't think that this thread in any indication of the "kids" saying anything. Mostly the trouble comes from people who were not even there and have no idea of the truth!!

    I would like to know when and where the S.C.T.P. program will be held in '08. I will go there to "put up with the kids"!! They are having fun, not chasing the dollars!! It was refreshing to ask one "how did you shoot" and see their chest puff out as they replied, proudly "I broke an 83", and was truly happy with it. Paul
     
  13. Stuart

    Stuart Member

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    Paul, You are exactly correct. The SCTP organization had worked out an agreement with the ATA to start their program on a Monday, the day before fun day. Neil, we are talking about 3 years ago. When the Kids showed up there was NO trap help hired to be there. Registration was not open. The Vendors were not notified that they were coming.
    I happened to be setting up and opened. It was the best day of the Grand. BUT that history, someone did lose their job over that. It does reflect the attitude of the ATA about having to put up with these darn kids.
    Pat Ireland: you suggest that only the kids will suffer from the way I started this thread. I totally disagree with you, your vision is so narrow you can look thru a key hole with both eyes. The ATA will lose a great resource and it will be folks like yourself and Neil that did it.
    No we don't have to cater to the kids or there parents, but the ATA has made a mess out of making commitments and obligations and falling very short it keeping them.
    The new dates for the SCTP grand is July 13-18 in Sparta. At the same time Sporting Clays and Skeet finals will be conducted.
    You Vendors might wish to make a note of this because for the last 3 years the SCTP days were the best shopping days at the Grand. There were 10,000 kids involved in Trap last year ,along with Skeet and Sporting. The Sporting and Skeet finals were held out east and suffered from the location. Know it will be all held together at Sparta. I will have to bet that 2008 will see the same increase in membership and could easly hit 16,000-18,000 kids. Does that sound as if the SCTP program is suffering? Remember what industry is supporting and the commitment they have made. Lot more cash then the ata and a LOT more commitment.
    Stuart Wright
     
  14. trapgeek

    trapgeek Member

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    Stuart: I am an SCTP Coach in MI. Where did you get these dates already? They are not posted on the SCTP website yet. This is important information of us coaches.

    Leslie York
     
  15. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    The fact that almost all problems are created by parents and coaches of this program is typical of youth sports. It is true that coaches and refs have been verbally if not physically asaulted for such petty things as the line up of shooters, which load to use, advising about illegal loads, gun choices and such.

    I have seen sporting clays shooters try to coach kids shooting ATA with disasterous results, something going on in my area. Having selfish folks in the program with their own agenda is a looming problem which needs to be addressed and is causing hard feelings, kids leaving the program, and low scores.

    This foolishness has nothing to do with the kids. Let's try to keep this egotistical and childish behavior away from those we would train.

    I am no angel, but I try my best to be a positive role model for those young athletes around me. Some of the parents and coaches need to remember their REAL role in this.

    A genuine leader is ALWAYS in the servant's role!!!!
     
  16. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    I would think shooting 200 on the same day would be cheaper for the kids and parents, one less night to stay. Some of the little fellows might get tired, maybe not.....
     
  17. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    My thought, too. Some of them are munchkins! If they and their parents and coaches are going to be in the heat all day, they will have to be on the lookout for dehydration and medical issues. Folks forget to drink enough liquids and take their meds in these circumstances.
     
  18. Stuart

    Stuart Member

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    Trapgeek; these dates came from the office of the SCTP. I'm sure their not be a conflict with any dates selected. I doubt the office has had time to organize anything so they can post the dates. There has to be a lot of planning done.
    Trapcoach; You must be a lonely man. Thinking parents are the problem. Thinking other well meaning trap shooters are steping on your toes and not teaching these kids to your way of doing things. I have Master class Sporting shooters teach our trap shooters how to swing and follow the target. Makes them better shooters. We also use Skeet for this. It is a damn shame your kids don't get a presentation to all the shotgun sports.
    If some of you feel this is not the foram to air out these problems my phone number is
    618-357-8933.
    I'll be glad to hear your CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions.
    Stuart
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Stuart, I was going to call you, but you have already cleared up many of my questions.

    The first one, of course, was the impression you gave - at least to me - that all this happened this year. Now it's clear you were talking about three years ago. As you recall, we apologized then personally to the coaches in the porch overlooking the Grandstands in Vandalia, and followed up with similar sentiments in Trap & Field and elsewhere.

    At the time, we promised to make changes. Some worked; some didn't. In 2006 we used another program for presquadding and allowed pre-payment as well. That would have worked if the coaches had all brought the same teams, with kids still shooting in the same positions to Sparta and just entered them. But many wanted changes in personnel or position. And they had pre-paid for the event - and that turned out to be a big problem.

    Once an entry is paid, it is essentially locked up for good. It has to be this way. We are holding shooters' money in their names and we have to carefully control who's name is associated with that money. So it takes two prybars to even start to change that entry, special computers, special people. If there are a lot of changes, it can take a very long time for the line to drift forward.

    So in 2007 we integrated presquadding into the general mix of shooters and ended pre-payment since we knew there would be changes needed, we learned that 2006. I was told that this year confirmation was sent out of team presquadding. I don't know if it was sent to the coach or the shooter, but at least, again to my understanding, all that was done right.

    I don't know of anyone adult shooter who had squadding problems beyond yardage changes and that sort of thing. But it's true, an ATA employee, BR, spent two full-time days with SCTP squadding (and other) problems. Again, I've been lead to believe that the cause of the trouble was the same, coaches wanting to enter different kids, or the same kids in different places. Otherwise it went pretty smoothly, as I understand it.

    Here was our plan: The SCTP would shoot its 200 birds on Tuesday. They would have the facility entirely at their beck and call. R.J Stuart was to - and agreed to - arrange that for that day only, entries would be accepted from unclassified shooters. If the kids were mixed in with others, as they were in 2007, then they have to be classified. If they are alone, they don't have to be.) So all they would have to do, according to our plan, is present an ATA card at cashiering and everything would be automatic, except for squad changes of course, and you really can't blame that on us. Cashiering and squadding were to be open all day Monday, exclusively for the kids in the AM at least.

    As many have pointed out already, there was no question of not letting kids shoot after that, in fact the Team event on the next day was specifically aimed at encouraging them to stay.

    If held on that Tuesday, parents and teams would not be competing for scarce lodging with the rest of the attendees; they are coming the next day, after all. This should have been an attractive change, it seemed to us at the time. To say nothing of the money saved by needing the rooms for at least a day less.

    In 2007 we had to impose restrictions on what the SCTP could do in the afternoon at the Grandstands. There were still plenty of members who had paid their good money to shoot the handicap under equal competitive conditions, and so some planned-for Grandstand events had to be delayed and people went home without being able to "do the whole thing." On a one-day schedule, they can do whatever they want and, of course, the event will end and be scored and reported far sooner, which is what everyone wants all the time.

    We did add two days in 2007 and ended up with a Grand that was simply too long and everyone at least agrees with that. Next year we we going to add just a single day. Sure, that's not two days, but it's only 200 targets - a standard set by the SCTP, not the ATA - and why can't that be done in a day if there's nothing else being shot? The heat and young kids? The Hall of Fame at the Grand used to ask 200 birds of the High-school and College teams, but only 100 (with an optional 100 if desired but not team-counted) for the younger shooters. That worked fine at Vandalia and it was plenty hot there as well as too many have forgotten.

    Russ, I'd like to thank you for your posts and add White Flyer to the list of people we thank, as they supply at no cost the targets for the event - I trust everyone went by and said thanks to them for this most generous contribution.

    All in all, Stuart, I hope you see that the ATA had no intention of applying "a kick in the groin" as you put it, but rather had carefully planned an event that would work well for the kids, the coaches, SCTP, and the ATA as well, and thought of it as the best plan yet.

    Neil
     
  20. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Stuart

    What I said is what I meant. Most all the problems in the SCTP are NOT caused by the kids. Who else does that leave?

    AS far as un qualified folks trying to help, with all respect, consider this.

    SCTP shooters do NOT need to learn how to shoot low gun for ATA. They do NOT need to try to break 40 yard crossers to shoot ATA. They do NOT need to be shown a foot position that looks like a surfer in California to shoot ATA Singles, which is the ONLY event SCTP shoots.

    I have seen all this and more at my club. We even had a well intentioned fellow try to tell kids they should put their thumb on top of the rib so they would not look at the sights. (groan)

    If you subscribe to this, then we must agree to disagree.

    Please note that I did not insult, or even demean you for your opinion. If you help young shooters, you are appreciated.

    Please guys, use appropriate training techniques for young and beginning shooters.
     
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