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Scoring question..

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by blkcloud, Jun 17, 2011.

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  1. blkcloud

    blkcloud Active Member

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    At the last AIM shoot, when the kids came off the line from their last 25, the scorer held out the score sheet for the lead off kid to sign.. I told him.. dont sign it until we look at it.. The ATA delegate was standing there waiting on the sheet.. he told me.. its over now.. the scorer has done his job, all you can do is sign it.. I told the kid to sign it and the delegate took off with it.. well... the scores were posted 30 minuts later.. one kid who shot a 20 on his last round was scored a 15..?? we asked to see the score sheet.. his last 5 shots were all zeros..not x's.. (several parents were scoring for them selves and they all got it right) the score keeping kid never called a lost target on the last 5 shots..yet he scored them misses.. this exact same thing happend to another squad.. what is the rule and what should I have done? (other than remembering the ata rule book) thanks!
     
  2. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure scores must be corrected before leaving the post you are on.

    "11. The official score must be kept on the score sheet in plain view of
    the contestant. If contestant’s view of the score sheet is obstructed for
    any reason, he/she may refuse to shoot until he/she has been provided
    an unobstructed view of the score sheet.

    12. It is an error if the referee/scorer fails to properly mark the results of
    any shot in the section of the score sheet where the results should be
    recorded. In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any error
    corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post or in the
    case of his/her last post before leaving the trap. If the shooter fails to
    have the score corrected, the recorded score(s) shall remain unchanged 
    and no valid protest will be entertained.

    13. Every contestant in a squad shall be permitted to examine his/her
    score before the sheet is sent to the bulletin board or to the cashier’s
    office. The score sheet should be checked, confirmed, and initialed by
    the Squad Leader. The Squad Leader is encouraged to verify that any
    targets changed during a sub event are correctly noted as either dead
    or lost. After the completion of the last sub-event the score sheet will
    be handled as directed by shoot management."
     
  3. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    The last posts scores are not "final" until they are checked by the squad.

    The shooter or shooters on the squad could have questioned them when they were called out after the final shot, just as with any other post.

    You as a spectator, coach, or whatever, have no say in the matter. AIM or not.
     
  4. blkcloud

    blkcloud Active Member

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    That's what I was wondering..as coach do I go over the score sheet or stand back and let the kids go over them.. I guess on the sub junior team.. 10-11 year old you just hope and pray the scorer gets it right..
     
  5. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Technically it is the shooter that is responsible for his score. In the real world with kids involved, I wouldn't have a problem with a coach looking over the kids shoulders as they review the sheet; as long as you aren't holding things up. You could have discussed the last post at that time, and changes could have been made if the scorer agreed.Too bad management gave you bad advise; can't repeat enough how important it is to read and underestand the rules to protect yourself. You will find many instances where people that should know the rules, don't. If you let them make a bad decision because you don't know the rule, enough said.
     
  6. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    You are supposed to listen as the score are called out on each post and make any changes right then and there ... I am not aware of any provisions being made for the Coaches to look over the score but there probably should be in a lot of cases because the kids have a lot to think about when they are shooting and they depend on the score keepers to get it right ... Then the problem arises that many times the score keepers do not get it right because they are texting one of their friends and or jamming to the IPod tunes rather than paying attention ... The best score keepers can make mistakes because they are only human also ... I would of probably told the Delegate to mind his own business and checked the scores, then had him address the mistakes being as he was standing right there ... Then I would of requested another score keeper before shooting the next round on that trap ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  7. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    There is no excuse for poor score keeping. Mistakes can be made by even the most experianced score keepers but most of the mistakes i see today are stupidity. Lately i have had a number of score keepers that simply cannot add and subtract. In my opinion there is no place in a score keepers chair for those people. Stick 'em in the trap house to load if you must hire them. Then you have the score keepers that can't pay attention to the task at hand. I watched one score keeper watching another trap as she was supposed to be scoring her own. Wonder how those shooter's scores turned out? I think more time needs to be spent training the score keepers. If they don't know whats going on they can't score properly.
     
  8. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    The ATA delegate was wrong. The review and greement on the scores is necessary before the leadman signs off on it. That is the whole purpose of the sign off - this is the opportunity to make corrections. Once those sheets are signed and sent in its a done deal.
     
  9. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    There wasn't an F1 and F2 on the score sheet before the last 5 losses? Just a thought.

    Bob
     
  10. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it is in the rule about seeing the scoresheet, but in reality that hardly ever happens. It is a good idea and would help with some situations, just pointing out that generally all you will get is the called out score. Also, not to nit pick, but you don't have to remain on your post until you agree to the score. I see people doing this sometimes and there is just no reason to hold things up. Just make sure it's ok before you fire the first shot at the next post, or before you leave the trap if it's the last post.
     
  11. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Which state did this happen?

    You as a coach intially instructed the leader properly. Since it was the last post the situation could have been disputed and corrected.

    Make sure that your aware of the rules and add it to instruction format.
     
  12. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    and further more, it is NOT a rule that you sign the score sheet. The rule says "should", not must. It is not a big deal to sign it but it is not a rule.
     
  13. DODGEMAN

    DODGEMAN Member

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    I always thought that when you move to the next post that the scores of the last post become final, and that the final sign off was to make sure the addition was correct. I dont believe you can change a lost/dead call once you leave a post.
     
  14. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    DODGEMAN

    Not quite, but close. In so many words, the score on any post can't be changed once you take your first shot at the next post.

    "12. It is an error if the referee/scorer fails to properly mark the results of any shot in the section of the score sheet where the results should be recorded. <i>In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any error corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post or in the case of his/her last post before leaving the trap.</i> If the shooter fails to have the score corrected, the recorded score(s) shall remain unchanged and no valid protest will be entertained."
     
  15. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    "12. It is an error if the referee/scorer fails to properly mark the results of any shot in the SECTION OF THE SCORE SHEET where the results should be recorded." This is pretty specific and does not prevent the "score" from being changed at the end of the round. Is there another rule that does prevent the score from being changed after changing posts? JRM
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    We must watch how the scorekeepers keep track of our scores with diligence! It doesn't matter the size of shoot either! New help at the majors can be a real experience too!

    How can you possibly shoot a winning score if a scorekeeper calls a 5 for you and you know you smoked all 5, get to the end of the round to find a miss when you know you smoked all 25? That, even though all targets were accounted for with a score call of 5s?

    The rule says a shooter must be able to see each of your stations recorded score to make sure himself? There's very few score sheets in use where a competitor can actually turn to see how his scores are recorded in use these days. You lose that target if it isn't changed prior to shooting the first target on the next station or leaving the trap on a last 5.

    Watching each others targets is mighty important also! Keeping your eyes on a dusted target till it hits the ground could mean the difference between a broken target or a missed target also!! I've observed that happen twice at Tucson during the Grand shoots and the scorekeepers caught it both times and called the targets dead!! Those targets didn't break apart for quite a ways out, one was very close to hitting the ground before flying apart! Dead bird was a great call the scorekeeper!

    The top shooters squads watch each others birds like a hawk and call them like they see them when it comes to scoring and they don't miss seeing much at all!!

    Hap
     
  17. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    At the Iowa High School shoot our team was scoring for the team behind us. This team, would not move from the station until all 5 scores had been read. They also would not come off the line after the last shot of the subevent until the scores were read.

    Our guy just said 'dead and out' and the boys just stood there and looked at him until he read the scores.

    After shooting for 30+ years you just never know what you'll see next.
     
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