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SANDBAGGING

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by skippy, Feb 13, 2010.

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  1. skippy

    skippy TS Member

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    Just a quick question on how or what can be done to people SANDBAGGING @ registered ATA shoots? Do you contact your ATA delegate first or do you go right to the ATA?
     
  2. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    Contact your Delegate.

    jim brown
     
  3. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    BOY are you opening a can of worms. This has been gone over a hundred times. Yes there is something the ATA can do but will not. All they have to do is look at their past scores in say small shoots and compair them to their scores in a big shoot. I can't stand it when you see a D and C class shooter all of a sudden start shooting 98, 99 and 100 in all events at big shoots. It can be stopped but they will not do a thing about it.
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    skippy I am just curious but how would you prove it? What would you consider a definite indicator of sandbagging?

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you could ever prove someone was sandbagging but we all know it happens all the time,if handicappers would use known ability and not put shooters they know are capable in lower classes it would help.Jerry
     
  6. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    jdsfarms

    "if handicappers would use known ability and not put shooters they know are capable in lower classes it would help."

    Jerry please explain just how you know a shooter is capable of shooting higher score in higher classes? I do a little handicapping and I still haven't figured out how to do as you suggest.

    Bob Lawless
     
  7. Anchorsteam

    Anchorsteam TS Member

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    Couldn't that idea simply be an extension of playing 'strategy ball'??? Is 'sandbagging' specifically addressed in the ATA rule book? If not, how come??? Not suggesting I condone this activity --- whatever it is.
     
  8. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    I go to the same shoots pretty much every year and know a fair number of the shooters who attend,I am always amazed that a guy that I know has several 100 straights is classed as a "C" shooter because of his average and then shoots a high 90's score in that class,seems that know ability should have been considered.Jerry
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Well let me ask this question where would you as a shooter expect to see the most inconsistency in score. In AA, A, B, C, or D, I have yet to have the known ability rule defined to my satisfaction. It doesn't tell me if one score above your average demonstrates your ability to shoot that next class. Or does it take two or more or 5 or 10 just how many does it take.

    In my way of seeing it if it takes only one score above there would be no A class shooters as I don't know many of them that haven't shot 97 or better. Another point is how does a 100 demonstrate one ability to shoot a higher class if the shooter has 5000 singles targets on his card. There are no hard fast guideline for known ability. No one can tell me that a 100 or a 99 on your card makes you AA shooter if you are in A class. Why would anyone feel that because a shooter is in C or D class that a 100 make him a B or A shooter.

    So once again I will ask how does anyone know a shooter is capable of shooting higher score in higher classes? By one or two scores. Also why is it just C and D class that everyone feels is where all the sandbagging is taking place.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Bob I used to shoot with one eye closed and I decided a while back I was going to train myself to shoot with both eyes open,I suffered through a string of poor scores before I made the adjustment and my average suffered as well.I have always been a High "B" or low "A" Class shooter when I showed up at the registered shoot following our winter league I was shooting pretty well but had a definite "C" average I handed the Handicappers my card and they just smiled at me and wrote "B" on the entry sheet and handed it back to me.I carried a "C" average for about half a season and never shot a target as a "C" shooter,I never questioned it and presumed it was because of known ability.Jerry
     
  11. wild bill JP1

    wild bill JP1 TS Member

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    Oh listen, there are deligates out there that can smell a SANDBAGGER from across the club parking lot and beyond whether they know you or not, it doesn't matter.

    "Some" deligates are special like that. Upon discovery of a SANDBAGGER, they start the process, evil eye looks are passed around, words are wispered to the clean ones, and the SANDBAGGER is passed through the judgement.

    Those same deligates can even look at your past scores and tell if your good at your job. What does a persons profession have to do with SANDBAGGING?
    Hell, I don't know....

    Later....
     
  12. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    sandbagging- every sport has them, especially when money is at stake. how do you prove someone is actually sandbagging? at my state shoot last year, one of the best consistint shooters over numerous past years was shooting in class c. numerous shooters could not believe that the good old boy network classified him in such a low class, and also that he would accept shooting in that class. it was embarrasing & we all said what ever happen to "known ability"? known ability should apply for everyone not just a select few. this shooter has won at the state shoot in the past, has won at the grand too. you always want to classify shooters where they will always have a chance to win, but this was an absolute farce. it would be nice if the ATA, and at the state level, could handle sandbaggers, but how do you actually prove it?
    steve balistreri
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    jdsfarms I will tell something I do not care what class I am put in but I will not shoot in less than A class. If they were to classify me in less than A I would not pay for my positions. I would leave instead.

    That doesn't change the fact that I have yet to see an answer to my question from you or anyone else. That question is please define known ability? To a point where I can look at someones Average card and say oh he is a A class shooter when his average is clearly a D class average.

    Jerry with all do respect to your last post you stated,

    "I used to shoot with one eye closed and I decided a while back I was going to train myself to shoot with both eyes open"

    No matter what the out come of that scenario you made a statement that pretty well sums up your situation. You said you decided to change your shooting style(one to two eyes)I personally couldn't expect to get a change in class because of a decision that I made on my own.

    senior smoke

    "you always want to classify shooters where they will always have a chance to win, but this was an absolute farce. it would be nice if the ATA, and at the state level, could handle sandbaggers, but how do you actually prove it?

    Exactly Steve how do you prove it? You can believe it all you want but proving and enforcing are much different.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If sandbagging in handicap can be documented, all the delegate has to do is recommend a yardage increase to either the Central Handicap Committee member from his zone or the President of his zone. As far as I know, the recommendation is approved.

    In singles and doubles, all the person who is classifying has to do is remember that the shooters average is only one of four things that should be considered. The other three are wins/ties, known ability, and exceptionally high scores. The average is only the starting point for classifying shooters. I have often classified two shooters with the same average in different classes.

    At a five class shoot, a 27 yard shooter with a 96.8 average with a few 100 straights and a few wins will end up in AA if I am classifying. Another shooter, on the 24 yard line with a 96.8 average, no 100 straights and no wins will shoot in class A unless he asks me to put him in AA. Many make this request and I always honer it.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Sandbaggers are an easy mark and even more easily dealt with.

    'sides, they usually self implode at the big shoots anyway and aren't worth the time and effort.

    Curt
     
  16. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

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    Unless they were dancing around and pulling to trigger in the sky while looking in different direction...Its very hard to prove...you are calling someones honor as a sportsman up on the table
     
  17. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    Ivanhoe, clueless as aways. If a shooter in D or C class shoots nothing but scores in the mid 80's in SMALL SHOOTS then goes to BIG SHOOTS and shoots 98 99 100 wouldn't that be sandbagging? Its easy to prove if you want to prove it.

    One other way to stop sandbagging is when you go up a class you stay there. No going back to the lower class. That way you are not playing the yoyo class rating. D class to say B class at the end of the year and then back to D class at the start of the year.
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    CalvinMD- You make a good point about "proving" sandbagging. But there are three levels of proof recognized by our legal system. A preponderance of evidence requires just a slight tip of the scale to one side. That is you are 51% certain of sandbagging and 49% uncertain. This is the level of proof that is accepted in civil matters before a court. The second level, clear and convincing, can be described as 75% certain and 25% uncertain. This level is used by the courts in such things a professional license revocation. The level of proof known as beyond a reasonable doubt (99% certain) is only applied in cases where the defendant might go to jail.

    For sandbagging, I believe something between the preponderance of evidence and clear and convincing evidence is adequate.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    SANDBAGGING doesn't exist in the ATA. However, I know some shooters that are very adept at "target management". Lol.

    A shooting friend of mine went to one of the big ATA shoots years ago. When going through classification he was told that he'd be shooting "B" class in singles because of his average. He explained to the people in classification that during much of that time he was ill and not shooting his best. He then showed them his scores, from the last 2 months, and asked to be bumped up to "A". The guy in classification told him he would shoot in what class was assigned and not to argue to the point.

    My buddy won the "B" class by a wide margin and was called everything under the sun for "Sandbagging". That was the last registered ATA shoot he attended.

    Sometimes it's not the shooter, but the people in classification.

    ss
     
  20. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    What about shooters who shoot year round in all kinds of weather. During the winter my average goes in the toilet. My bad back, stiffness,cold , weather are not good for consistant scores. There should be two seasons. One being below 40 and the other above 40 degrees. Or Oct thru March--the practice season. Apr-Sept the competition season. Scores in the competition season are the ones used for classification & handicaps. This gives the norther shooters who don't live in temperate climates an even leg up. I know it will never happen. Just like the Grand going back to Ohio.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
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