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Sandbagger (?) opinion

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by HHS, Jul 12, 2007.

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  1. HHS

    HHS TS Member

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    After some poor shooting my HC average went down enough to get a reduction from the 22 back to the 21. I was shooting in the mid to high 80's and just could not find the targets.
    I have now found the problem and my scores have gone back into the low to mid 90's and I just got punched back to the 21 1/2. I have two small local shoots coming up that I'm sure if I shoot as I have been I will get punched another 1/2 or full yard.
    I'm headed to the Grand in a month and wonder if I should just pass on the small shoots and hope to get my punch there by doing real good in the short yardage cap's.
    Does this make me a sandbagger?
     
  2. chc

    chc TS Member

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    "Does this make me a sandbagger?"

    No. You would be a sandbagger if you purposely missed targets.
     
  3. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    CHC,

    The politicaly correct way of stating that is, "target managment". Lol.

    Damn Bob, you beat me to it.

    ec90t
     
  4. Mike Michalski

    Mike Michalski Member

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    Semantics. Do what you think is right. Like the man said you have to look at yourself in the mirror. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that sandbaggers deliberately miss targets and that wrong. Target managers make decisions on when to shoot and I can find nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical with that. IMHO
     
  5. swamp rat

    swamp rat TS Member

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    Dont worry about the sandbagging. As you earn yardage the pros will be picking your pocket at the big shoots anyway. The ATA need to look at ways to fix the pro problem in the ATA. The money punch that the ATA came up with to stop the sandbagging has hurt the options money played by shooters. I know alot of shooters that have stopped playing the options because of the pros and the money punch. The ATA has turned a blind eye to the pro problem. Why? Money punch them into a new pro class and let them shoot for their own money.
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Staying home and not shooting any registered targets is fine. Here's how the old "known ability" rule may come into play during such a lay-off. If the shooter visits his local club and shoots good practice scores there, it's possible to get a dime dropped on the shooter prior to his state shoot or some big upcoming event. The known ability rule is usually thought of as a singles only application but it can and will be (has been) used in handicaps also. Hap
     
  7. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    who has time to try to be a sandbagger

    who has time to worry about someone being a sandbagger

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  8. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Yes ... you could be considered a sandbagger. You were reduced in yardage because of poor shooting but have now corrected your problems and are saying you would most likely be punched back another 1/2 or even full yard because you've corrected your problems.

    Now what makes it interesting is if you shoot the upcoming shoots you risk the chance of getting punched back to where you should be shooting at and if you don't shoot these shoots your starting off at the grand at a shorter yardage than what you think you should be at ... is that fair to the other shooters? Fair to hold off registered shoots till the grand to protect your short handicap?

    Ask yourself this question ... How would you feel if the guy next to you at the grand did exactly what your thinking of doing and beat you by just a bird or two and you would have won if he had ... well know the rest of the question.

    Take it for what it is worth but there are many forms of sandbagging and target management is just a politically correct term for the same thing.
     
  9. C H S

    C H S TS Member

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    Yea, Gene!

    Whoever has the time to run around researching your scores to see what you shot over the last year doesn't have a life anyway and they need something totally pointless to do. Why the heck should you care if other people want to think you're sandbagging? I sure wouldn't!

    Andy
     
  10. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    Sandbagging is "MISSING TARGETS ON PURPOSE to stay at a lower class or lower yardage. That is the ONLY way to sandbag. In order to do that you have to be shooting.
     
  11. k newman

    k newman TS Member

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    Handicap -- what is it? A system which attempts to level the playing field -- good shooters at the 27, those starting out at the 19 or 20- - supposedly gives everyone a shot at winning. They have it in golf, bowling and a number of other sports.

    So, one regularly goes to a shoot with precisely 15 shooters and ends up at the 27 yard line shooting scores of 88-90, maybe because of the ability of the competition, maybe because of the other 14 gladly dropping targets to let someone else get the yardage -- whatever.

    Then, this person goes to a BIG shoot, and is competing on the 27 with all-americans and all sorts of others who are deservedly shooting from the 27. Does this person have a chance?? Slim and none.

    Not shooting handicap at small shoots and only earning yardage in situations where it's truly earned -- is that 'target management', or simply competing knowing you're on the correct yard line because you've got there shooting legitimate shoots with ample competition? Sorry, I'm going with option B - skipping small shoots.
     
  12. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Slide Action ... what is the difference between purposely missing targets to keep a low average or just not shooting registered targets to keep your average low? Either way your kind of purposely missing targets to keep a low average ... right?

    Mr Newman ... what does it matter if your shooting against 15 shooters at a small shoot or 150 shooters at a large shoot? Knowingly not shooting a registered shoot just to avoid getting your yardage changed is wrong. What about the guy who shoots every event to get better and to move farther and farther back and now your now shooting every event so that you dont move but back ... well ... that is just not right. Yes you can avoid shooting to keep your yardage short so you have a solid advantage over others but is that right? Reverse the situation and your now the one who worked hard to get that punch and improve and you are beat by a person who did not shoot so he could stay short and ... well ... he wins and you lose ... now is that right or wrong?
     
  13. k newman

    k newman TS Member

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    23,
    that's exactly my point, and I speak mainly for my son as well. The young are most at risk -- either for not knowing the games people play, or having young reflexes and skill that could have them above their head in no time without truly having earned their way or experiencing true competition.

    They have a long time to mature, and having them directly competing with Kaye Ohye before they're ready is not going to keep them in the game long.

    thanks
     
  14. k newman

    k newman TS Member

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    AL_maxey, it's not about earning yardage or winning at the grand, it's being able to go to the grand, your state shoot, or other bigger shoot with a good number of shooters and legitimately compete, rather than just having 'fun' and contributing. No one's said anything about avoiding small clubs or their shoots, just simply stating, based on one's goals, it may not be wise to shoot handicap there -- there are two other events to participate in.
     
  15. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    HHS - Don't pay any attention to the like os people like lumper. To them everbody else is a sandbagger and should shoot 27 yards. That way they have a chance to win at shorter yardages. Skipping a shoot is not a sin, only missing targets on purpose is. Take every legal advantage you can when going to the Grand. The competitions is fierce. Good luck to you. - Jim
     
  16. cheeseburger7

    cheeseburger7 TS Member

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    If you have the skill, which seems like you do, shoot were you should be shooting from. It does sound like a little sandbagging to me. But, you should do what you know is right for you and the other shooters.
     
  17. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    HHS:

    Write you state delegate and tell him the rules you have to abide by in the ATA are profoundly outdated which is causing you to wonder if you should shoot ATA targets at smaller shoots.

    You can't win in this situation and you are not alone. Many more trapshooters are scared to take yardage at smaller shoots and I don't blame them. It is outdated rules and regulations the ATA enforces.

    We as trapshooters should never, ever, have a set of rules that forces us to be leery, hesitant, or just plain afraid to compete because of the consequences of shooting a good score especially at small shoots!

    Mark Rounds
     
  18. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    Remember unless you you have 1,000 targets in the current year you will shoot from at least 25 yds at the Grand so you can't do a lot of avoiding handicap anyway if you plan on getting enough targets to avoid penalty yardage. If a guy is trying to avoid a punch by dropping birds hew is certainly a sandbagger, but just not shooting is not. I doubt if anybody who is trying to "avoid" a punch will shoot only in good conditions. That is when you will most likely earn a punch. I think the punches are too deep in most cases anyway. I once got 4 punches at small shoots and never got in the 90s.Just happened to be high and there were at least 15 shooters present. I have NEVER tried to drop targets on purpose(don't think I could program my brain to do that anyway).
     
  19. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    I'm with Al on this one.

    I don't think skipping shoots is sandbagging, but I don't think it's in your best interest either. You either like to shoot for the pure enjoyment of it or you don't. My last two yards (25 and 26) have netted me exactly 0,zero, dollars and I didn't win any trophies either. Someone else said it early, shooting good scores builds confidence. If your only reason for not shooting the smaller shoots is to shoot closer at the grand, then I say shoot.

    I thinks if kind of like playing golf. If you wait on the group ahead of you to get out of your ultimate potential range before you hit, and then dub your shot you'll hear people say, "it's a good thing you waited".

    So, if you skip those small shoots you better come home with some hardware.
     
  20. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Believing you may be successful in winning and getting a punch at the next small shoot can be considered "good confidence" or "wishful thinking" depending on the outcome that day. There is no guarantee you will be successful...think about it...there may be somebody show up there who outshoots you or you have a bad day. "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched"....this quote kinda dates me, huh? Best Regards, Ed
     
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