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SAAMI/ANSI Z 299.2 - 1992 see velocities shot shel

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Nov 27, 2009.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    For those curious about velocities of shot shell specifications/limits
    enter this into you favorites section of your computer.

    There is a section on SKEET LOADS check velocities

    If you find one on TRAP loads in this article point it out to me.

    SKEET LOADS have their own velocity limits, which are tighter.

    You will see shotshells on 12 gauge at a lot of shot limits and speeds

    But the standard is 3 feet from muzzle of test Bbl.

    I did not see any specification of limits tighter than PLUS or MINUS 90 fps.
    SAAMI explains this limit in detail for production standards, they also state
    high limits and low limits on velocity.

    Read page 2 and page 8 in particular, page 9 has Skeet loads listed, note there are no loads listed as TRAP loads on any page.



    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, as I wrote you on 11 September 2009, the last time you said all this:

    "Well, I'm afraid that _is_ where you are coming from, Gary, but every single word of that is wrong. The limits for "skeet shells" are _exactly the same_ as for the others, those not labeled "skeet." Here's the text:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    The column label is exactly the same as the first one I posted. There's no difference in them. They are not built to "tighter tolerance." There's no evidence that these are design limits of NSSA shells; you just made that up. The fsp of skeet shells is not "very limited to narrow tolerances;" the tolerances are the same as all the others. Since the shell-tolerances are the same there's no evidence that the NSSA is " more concerned to fairness of shells than the ATA." It is not true that "Skeet loads. . . standards are tighter limits." It is not true that "SKEET SHELL limits are a lot more stringent." Not only is the assertion "The NSSA seems to have more control over their shell specs." wrong, but you have no idea if the NSSA had anything to do with this at all.

    You made it all up, Gary, and told us "These are facts not my opinion." They were not facts, they were imaginations, errors, and sloppy reading, with a whole bunch of fantasy and misrepresentations mixed in.

    Skeet shells, which I admit I've never seen an example of, would be tested with a more open-choked barrel. That's the difference. It's about 20 fps and they will read faster than from the full-choked barrel usually used.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Neil
     
  3. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Who in the world is this nurse.shortwad anyway?

    Thanks for posting the truth Neil.

    ss
     
  4. setter

    setter Member

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    The Link!
     
  5. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Neil you miss the whole point, SKEET loads are 1145 and 1200 fps PLUS or MINUS 90 FPS

    There is no designation of TRAP SHELLS Period. The PLUS or MINUS is still 90 fps as I stated.

    Shells used for trap are not listed as such. I don't see any 1250fps SKEET shells listed!!!!!!

    I don't see why you don't understand TRAP shells are not listed period.

    Trap shells can be any speed you choose, they are not regulated by SAAMI/ANSI

    You notice I said you choose.

    In the 50s and 60s there were only 2 shells 1145 and 1200 fps same plus or minus 90fps.

    So get out of the forest and look beyond the trees. You are lost and cannot admit it.

    A legal ATA shell can be 1 1/8th ounce and travel at a speed of 1340fps and still be legal which is Bullcrap. This is according to SAAMI/ANSI

    Neil show me a listing of TRAP SHELLS in this document, I would then be a believer. It is SIMPLE you CAN'T.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  6. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Neil read your 3rd paragraph in PAT IRELANDS post on Velocities.

    SKEET 1145 fps Plus or Minus 90 fps=1235
    Skeet 1200 fps Plus or Minus 90 fps=1290
    These shells are much slower than trap loads, thus tighter restrictions.

    Trap loads are not listed, my statement is and was SKEET has tighter velocities
    than ATA REGISTERED trap loads.

    You can shoot a 1 ounce trap load at 1480 fps if 1390 is listed + 90 fps.
    a Winchester Super Hdcp 1250fps + 90 fps = 1340 and still legal

    It does not take a genius to see the difference, you just see what you want to see.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary-, Neil did point out why skeet loads are separated from other types of shells. They are tested from a different type of barrel. Trap loads, sporting clay loads, duck loads and dove loads are tested with the same type of barrel and are not separated into identified categories. This is a decision made by the industry and not the agencies that regulate these sports.

    The ATA has tighter restrictions in allowed velocities than the shell manufacturers. For a 1 1/8 oz load, the maximum legal shell cannot exceed 1290 ft/sec. Your conclusion that a shell with a velocity of 1340 ft/sec is legal, is incorrect. I have tested a lot of factory shells. It is rare to find the shells traveling much faster that the velocity indicated on the box. It is not uncommon in some discount shells to find the velocity well below the velocity indicated on the box.

    You do pose at least a theoretical problem. Some brands of shot are poorly separated into sizes. I have seem several bags of shot labeled 7.5 but actually contained many shot that were larger than 7.5. If a person reloads one common brand of shot, they probably, at times have used an illegal shot size. Because our shell limitations are enforced by shooter integrity, and this works very well, incorrectly labeled components produces an individual dilemma.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Pat what I meant to say is that Skeet Loads are still 1145 fps 2 3/4 dram and 1200 fps 3 dram loads. The ATA has changed speeds drastically these past few years. I don't know the NSSA Skeet rules, but I don't think they allow 1250 fps
    shells, I could be wrong.

    I know they shoot the skeet shells in a different barell configuration, but according to SAAMI/ANSI shells must be within Plus or Minus 90 Fps, they are the ruling authority, New shells sold at the grand for the grand have always been loaded a little faster, and more shot, The AA Silver Bullet that was introduced at the Southern Grand with thedouble ++ markings were 1320 fps
    on average, and 510 grains shot, we used to use these for buddy shoot offs.
    They were stiff in the recoil Dept, Federal Papers marked Grand American were loaded the same way, the Mfgrs wanted to be in the Win Column. The first rem Nitro 27s were just like the early AA silver Bullet w/++ printed on them.
    A very good friend of mine ran them over his chrono with a printer read out and compared shells against shells designated Grand American. And there was a difference in speed and shot weight.

    Why the ATA allowed 1250 fps 1 1/8th oz shells is beyond me, Neil says it is SAAMI/ANSI specs, I say BS . some shells are marked MAZ DRAM EQUIV. The shells we shot in the 60s were 1200 fps 3 dram and 1145 2 3/4 dram shells That should never ever been changed, just as 3 hole targets were reduced. It has cost Registered shooting drastically in member retainment, plus other issues.

    We old time shooters know what has happened, the best Grand Attendances were with 3 hole targets and 1200 fps max shells.

    I believe another shooting organization is on the horizion, Could be
    GREAT LAKES TRAPSHOOTING ASSOCIATION.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Not a chance....
     
  10. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Pat,

    You are correct. The NSSA adopted the same format as the NSCA. I don't if they did this when they merged, kind of, or before. It just makes things a little easier.

    ss
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, you mean you've been going on and on about skeet's lower speeds when, in fact, you didn't know what skeet's rules are, in particular, that they _have no speed specifications at all!_?

    All that stuff about Grand shells is just "gun club fact" as well. When shells were required to be bought at (that) Grand, I always came home with five or six flats of representative shells from everyone just to see what was going on. They were, in general _no different_ and in particular _no faster_ than whatever you could have bought the same week at your local club. Yes, they had about 506 grains of lead, which is why I specified SAAMI's plus 3% allowance in weight in the rulebook where it hadn't been before. (Fioccis were the only brand that stuck with 1 1/8 ounce.) There was no point, it seemed to me, in selling illegal shells and making people shoot them. But the shells you got at the club in town were a bit over-weight as well. There was nothing different about Grand shells. Everyone "knew" there was, but there wasn't.

    The first silver bullets might have clocked that through some gun over some chronograph, but that's not "shot speed" when you are talking about how factory shells are measured. There is only one way to get a SAAMI speed and that's with specific equipment such as the makers (and I) have. The numbers you get at home cannot be compared with them.

    You conclude

    "Why the ATA allowed 1250 fps 1 1/8th oz shells is beyond me, Neil says it is SAAMI/ANSI specs, I say BS ."

    Well you can say what you want, Gary, but once again, your thinking it does not make it true. It _is_ SAAMI specs. You cannot argue that.

    I did, in fact, argue against the change from "3-dram" to 1290 fps. The then-president of the ATA made the change, but I told him he did not understand what he was doing, and I think history has proven me out. It still would have been a max of 1290, but the rulebook has much of the rest wrong, because the people making the rule did not read things carefully enough, if indeed they read anything at all.

    The reason for the change was that the office was spending a lot of time answering shot-speed questions, just as I still do, I guess. I suggested that a two or three page flyer could be send to anyone who wanted to know and they would get the right information every time and in a form they could understand. Why, I even offered to write the flyer! But that wasn't what happened, and really, things have worked out fine anyway, I guess.

    Neil
     
  12. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    If you know of ammo types that generate 1340 fps with 1 1/8 oz, please list so I can avoid them like the plague. LOL
     
  13. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Coach,

    Those Remington Nitro 27 Sporting Clays shells run about that fast. I think the Winchester Sporting Clays are even a bit faster.

    ss
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary- I do remember the first Win. Silver Bullets. I did not measure their speed but I recall their bump. They seemed hot to me based only on recoil.

    I believe you are sincere with your arguments but I also believe you are mistaken on some points. After reading your last few posts with care, it appears to me that the basic problem goes back to converting dram equivalent to velocity. It just can't be done with any accuracy. The 3 dram shells we shot in 1962 were not pushing shot at 1200 ft/sec. The dogma we believed (2.75 dram = 1145 ft/sec : 3 dram = 1200 ft/sec) was never true.

    Our current dilemma is not what dram equivalent means in ft/sec, but what 1200 ft/sec stamped on a box really means. For the Remington shells I tested recently, 1200 ft/sec means 1208-1221 ft/sec. For the Winchester AA shells I tested, 1200 ft/sec means 1210-1226 ft/sec. For a brand of discount imported shells, 1200 ft/sec means 1143-1175 ft/sec. For that same brand of discount shells 1145 ft/sec means 1146-1171 ft/sec. I believe they loaded one shells and just put them in boxes with different labels.

    We could go back to the system we had in 1960-- that would be nobody knows what the velocity is but everyone thinks they know what the velocity is.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Well said Pat. I have some old boxes of Western AA Trap, and AA Skeet loads. Both are 3 Dr.Eq., 1-1/8oz. These shells are identical except for the size of the shot. Wayne
     
  16. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Pat Ireland agree with you on the shells we shot in the 60s, At no time did I ever see or shoot or know of anyone that shot a shell faster than, or loaded any shells faster than 1200fps. We took the rules for granted and observed the rulews in effect at that time, Hap and I and you and other older shooters know what we used to shoot and shells we bought, they were in 20 baxes to a case and 500 shells, at a reasonable cost then of less that $40.00 per case.

    What I saw in SAAMI/ANSI was a listing for Skeet shells and that is what i was referring to, speed of 1145 and 1200fps.

    Did not see a listing for TRAP loads of any speed.

    I then looked up the NASSA Skeet rule book and saw they dod not list any speed for their shells, only shot size and a 3% deviation in weight.

    I do not recall the ATA deviation in weight, I was thinking it was 5%, I do know that new Fedreals had 515-520 grains of shot in the new ones That I weighed that were marked GRAND AMERICAN on them, I did this out of curiosity back in rhe early 80s.

    What I was referring to as tighter tolerances was the 1145 and 1200Fps skeet loads listed in SAAMI/ANSI specifications, and no trap loads listed, regardless of Bbl length or choking.

    I do not know what the earlier SKEET rules were for speed, only what was published recently, and no speed was listed, But I did see that if you loaded your shells you had to have them weighed and inspected and the boxes sealed before the competetion, and only opened on the field, this pertained only to RELOADS.

    Thanks to all for bearing with me and others for their information.
    are their any old SKEET shooters on here that have one of the rule books on shells from the 50s and 60s?

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, I'm going to keep after you on this, so for the I-don't-know-how-manyth-time, when you write

    "What I was referring to as tighter tolerances was the 1145 and 1200Fps skeet loads listed in SAAMI/ANSI specifications, and no trap loads listed, regardless of Bbl length or choking."

    I'll say again, as I always do, that the tolerances for skeet shells ARE NOT TIGHTER! THEY ARE THE SAME!

    It's great that you did finally look at the skeet rules, but you somehow got that wrong too. You wrote:

    "But I did see that if you loaded your shells you had to have them weighed and inspected and the boxes sealed before the competetion, and only opened on the field, this pertained only to RELOADS."

    . . . and this is not true either. Here's the text:

    "1. Gauge Specifications - Lead Shot

    a. Shells commercially manufactured by reputable companies, which are clearly labeled and guaranteed as to lead shot sizes and weight are recommended for use in registered skeet shoots. However, NSSA will accept results of shoots and register scores where reloads have been used. NSSA assumes no responsibility in connection with the use of reloads."

    followed by:

    "c. Any shooter may elect to have his/her shells weighed by management before entering an event. The shooter must submit all shells to be used in said event." . . .

    You see the difference? You wrote the reloads have to be weighted, while the rule is that the shooter may elect to have them weighed. Thus your wording "have to" is in error.

    Neil
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Sorry about that Neil, I was wrong

    now you can be happy.

    When I referred to tighter tolerances on Skeet loads I was referring to 1145 and 1200fps they all fit the Plus or Minus 90 fps Specs, which I think is quite wide.

    All under the bridge and forgotten now.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Why are there such a spread of shell speeds in ATA shells from 7/8s oz thru 1 1/8th oz loads.

    When you look at Alliant loading you see more 1145 to 1200fps loads in 1 1/8th
    oz loads.

    When you look at the Promo loads this is also what you see. I do know there are some exceptions but very little.

    Federal Gold Medals don't show a Promo load in the Alliant reloaders guide dated m2008, they show Promo for the Remington and Winchester AAs.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  20. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Why are there such a spread of shell speeds in ATA shells from 7/8s oz thru 1 1/8th oz loads.

    When you look at Alliant loading you see more 1145 to 1200fps loads in 1 1/8th
    oz loads.

    When you look at the Promo loads this is also what you see. I do know there are some exceptions but very little.

    Federal Gold Medals don't show a Promo load in the Alliant reloaders guide dated m2008, they show Promo for the Remington and Winchester AAs.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
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