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Rules - why have em??

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bisi, Jul 18, 2010.

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  1. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    Why do we even have a rule book in registered shooting? I ask because nobody follows em.

    Just in the last two shoots I’ve attended I’ve seen clear violations that every shooter should know or knows and they just look the other way. No, the scorer didn’t say anything so everybody thinks if it is kosher with the scorer then it isn’t a violation. When I first started shooting registered the shooters policed themselves, they didn’t expect a 14 or 15 year old girl to correct a 65 year old man with a shotgun in his hands.

    Example - I was shooting doubles when a shooter to the left of me had a “blooper” on his first shot. The wad cleared the barrel and he didn’t shoot at the 2nd target. He reload and shot the pair. Scorer said “dead a pair”. My turn to shoot, so I turned to scorer and said that first bird should have been scored lost because wad cleared barrel when he shot and had the “blooper”. That got the shooter mad and he told me to mind my own business. This guy wasn’t a new shooter, he was in his sixties. He should have known that shooting at a bird and missing with a “blooper” doesn’t entitled you to shoot at the bird again. If that is legal then every bird I missed in my life was because of a “blooper”. Technically he should have been given a lost target then charged with a failure to fire for not shooting at the 2nd bird. Correct? Or am I wrong?

    Last week at the Indiana State shoot I was shooting handicap. A guy on the squad I was shooting with was having gun problems. He mounted his gun at least a half dozen times called for the bird and didn’t shoot because his gun malfunctioned. The scorer or squad leader said nothing. I finally turned to the guy and asked him “how many failure to fires do you think you should get before a lost target is called?” That ticked him off and he said “that is the scorers job, I’ll let her worry about that”. I felt bad for the guy having gun problems, but at some point there has to be a lost target called. This guy was/is a 27 yard shooter so I know he has been around a while and should know the rules.

    It just seems there has been a slow demise in shooting etiquette or class the last 20 years. 20 years ago a shooter never waited for the puller to call a violation. They called the violation on themselves. When I first started shooting it seemed like a majority of the shooters had “name tags” on their vest/shirts/bags and it was considered good form to introduce oneself to squad mates before shooting began. After shooting it was customary to thank squad mates for them allowing you to shoot with em. Now?? I guarantee they are a couple of squad mates who hope that I’m never allowed to shoot with anybody anymore.
     
  2. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    I don't think the gun would have fired on the second target because of no trigger set. The first target was established lost -- reshoot the pair.

    But I agree about the 15 year old not having responsibility for the 60 year olds rule breaking. This game used to have more integrity, more honor, that shooter should have thanked you for correcting his error. We shot this morning and we had a shooter with blooper'itis and a new kid that apparently did not think chips counted and the geezers were coming unhinged! It was not a "harmonious" shoot.

    Later in the handicap, we had a nice older gent who needed a few extra minutes between 25's. There was a father and son on 3 and 4 who were crapping their britches with agitation,... on the post, holding the gun at the ready, while the guy tried his best to gear up.... I was the squad leader and i just hung back on the walk until the guy was ready. Once or twice I gave them the "hold" sign or tried to wave them back off the field. They just shook their head "no" and kept up the ready pose.

    What's the rule for that???

    The pair was shooting me dagger-eyes the whole event. Wouldn't give me eye contact when they went from 5 to 1. One of the most unsettled events I have ever participated in. I just gave them a brief second to adjust their panties and lit the post off when I was ready,... not them..... . I could just see them seething at me. And each loss they had made me smoke my next bird that much harder.
     
  3. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    When the chain of command relies on relatively untrained ineffectual individuals (pullers/scorers) as the first level of enforcement for the rules of the game, enforcement is doomed to failure. The scorers probably have never even seen the rulebook never mind read it. They have been exposed to only those few rules that were mentioned during whatever training they might have had, and how long do you expect that they will remember them?

    Squad leaders (post #1 shooters) have no authority or responsibility to enforce rules and the scorers have no power and have no way of communicating with higher authorities when they need them.

    This is a basic flaw in ATA rules enforcement. No one is actually in charge at the location where a rules violation occurs so shooters are left to argue among themselves as to how the situation should be resolved. Depending on the shooters to police themselves is naive. That's why I participate in only 2 registered shoots a year.

    MK
     
  4. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    A blooper on the first bird (bird not broken)and no shot on second bird is "lost pair". Wad stays in gun on first shot is failure to fire, reshoot pair. Break first bird, blooper on second, "dead, lost",break first bird, wad stays in barrel on second, reshoot pair. My understanding of the rule. Jake
     
  5. Dr. Honk

    Dr. Honk Member

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    Blooper on the first shot. Wad cleared barrel. I believe it is a lost pair.

    I shoot with the same group of shooters all of the time. Some times the scorers are inexperienced or they think they see what could be a chip.

    We call our lost targets and have it recorded before we leave the post.

    Dr. Honk.
     
  6. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    thanks, I don't shoot doubles that often. I was not clear on the rule. I was thinking that if the second shot would not fire, (assuming the shooter attempted to fire) that it would be a second barrel malfunction.
     
  7. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    The original question was NOT regarding how one particular rule should be interpreted.

    The original question was why have rules if there is no one on the spot with the authority/knowledge/power to enforce them?
     
  8. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Ah, but if you don't know the proper rule, then how are you going to enforce it?

    2. A contestant shall be allowed 2 failures to fire, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C., 2., above, during each Doubles sub-event if the Failure to Fire occurs when the contestant attempts to shoot the first target of a Doubles pair, or when the contestant attempts to shoot the second target of a Doubles pair after the first target has been fired at and broken and would have been scored “DEAD”. When the first target of a Doubles pair is fired at and missed and that target would be scored “LOST”, there shall be no allowable Failure to Fire at the second target. (See exception in VII., E., 11., f.) When a pair is ruled lost there shall be no “Failure to Fire” charged. When the first or second allowable Failure to Fire occurs in any Doubles sub-event, the contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire at another pair of targets and the result of the shots at the new pair will be scored in accordance with these Official Rules.

    Blooper on first target, wad clears barrel, miss the target and don't shoot the second target. Lost pair, no failure to fire charged.
     
  9. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Well, to address the original question, restated by Unknown1 . . . there are people on the spot with at least the knowledge to enforce them. It's the other 4 shooters on the squad. I recognize they don't have the authority, but at the very least they can speak up and identify a rule violation and ask that it be corrected.

    I've done it many times, and sometimes it doesn't make people happy, but sometimes that's the way it goes. It helps to read and understand the rules, and also keep a copy of the rulebook close at hand (I keep one in my shell bag that is with me at every trap). There are a lot of people, as Sportshot has demonstrated, that think they know the rules and will immediately speak up when a rules situation comes up, but really don't know anything other than what they thought or better yet what they heard.

    In the two instances cited by the original poster I can't see anything wrong with informing the shooter of the rule and asking that the targets be scored according the to rules.

    Scott
     
  10. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    git after em' Deputy Dawg.
    sportshot_2008_0303240.jpg
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    A few weeks back I had a blooper load evidently missing some shot. The wad cleared the barrel and the target broke which I didn't see break, the popper totally distracted me when it failed to recoil. Two or three of the on the squad saw the clay break though. I was asked if the wad cleared the barrel and I said yes, it's a lost pair not knowing I broke the clay with a popper load. I took the lost pair since I didn't see it myself but I should have gotten another pair and a FTF as others did see the bird break. I was over ruled and took the lost pair regardless.

    Hap
     
  12. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Sportshot. I suppose you ignore the rule book in bunker as well.
     
  13. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    "Ruels" are for sissies, right Barry?

    Sometimes you bug me.
    sportshot_2008_0303241.jpg
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Sportshot -

    It has nothing to do with being a "deputy". I think it's everyone's obligation to correct a scorer or shooter if they are unfamiliar with a rule. And I'm not talking about judgement calls (piece of a target or not), but rather situations in which there is a rule in place that defines how to handle the situation.

    I also believe in most situations such as those cited by the original poster that shooters are not attempting to cheat, but rather they are not familiar with the rules and the proper way to handle the situation.

    Scott
     
  15. Harv Shell

    Harv Shell TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I agree with the integrity problem Bisi, I don't know what is happening with some shooters taking targets they did not break.<br>
    If it happens on my squad, I stop and ask the scorer how the target was scored. Like Scott said, if it was someone else's target they sometimes get upset, but I figure that is their opportunity to own up.<br>
    I was at a shoot today and was watching a couple of my buddies shoot handicap and witnessed another shooter clearly miss his target, shake his head and swing his gun down, but no lost call from the scorer. At the end of that post he was called for a 5 and never said a word. Being a spectator at that point I was not in a position to question it, but that shooter has forever lost his integrity with me.<br>
    I can't believe your reputation is only worth one target, but in Frank Hoppe's words, you only get one reputation.<br>
    And I don't buy the argument that it makes up for the targets you break that sometimes are called lost, thats total BS. If you didn't break it, own up to it.<br>
    My buddy Dave Dressler took a handicap target away from himself in the 2008 GAH and finished with a 99. Ten feet tall in my book, stand up guy and how it should be. Harv Shell.
     
  16. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    gslam. I completely disagree with your assessment. I don't know who you consider a "big shot" but all of them that I know will call losses on themselves every time it is necessary. There is a lot of integrity at the top of this game.
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have not seen the lack of integrity witnessed by others. If the scorer makes an error, the squids I shoot in will help the scorer with the correct interpretation of the rules.

    Some grumble about the scorers not knowing all of the rules. But, by reading this thread nd many others like this thread, it is clear that many shooters do not know the rules.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "That got the shooter mad and he told me to mind my own business. This guy wasn’t a new shooter"

    "That ticked him off and he said “that is the scorers job, I’ll let her worry about that”."

    I won't argue or worry about what anyone thinks about who knows the rules and who doesn't. Those two comments one from the first shooter and one from the second shooter. Demonstrate to me that they both new they weren't right in their assumptions. Now when someone doesn't know the rule they usually don't argue the point with those that obviously might.

    Even thought Bisi wasn't right about the FTF rule. If the first shooter that made the first comment had made it to me I would have to think that he knew he was doing wrong.

    Also by the comments of the second shooter I would also think he new he was doing wrong. I mean how many do over does he think he is entitled to.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Read the rules and abide by them.

    Curt

    [​IMG]
     
  20. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    So, to shoot with Pat, you need to be in the Navy?

    Marines OK or not? Other Armed Forces?

    It's Monday! :)

    John
     
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