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Rules Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, May 4, 2007.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    During a sub event, a shooter gets one broken target and lowers his gun. The scorer says "let me clear the trap". The shooter has good ear plugs and does not hear the scorer. The scorer then pushes the release button as the shooter is mounting his gun and the shooter fires at the target released by the scorer and misses the target. The shooter did not call for the bird. How is this scored?

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. C1

    C1 Member

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    Lost
     
  3. old pipe

    old pipe TS Member

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    You fire at the target you bought it!! Only the score keeper/puller say otherwise. pineapple
     
  4. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Without verifying in the rulebook about the "verbal" part of the bird presentation.....I would say lost.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  5. geneleroy

    geneleroy TS Member

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    The Scorer should have called "no bird"! But for his action there would have been no target to shoot at! The Scorer clearly stated he was 'clearing' the trap!---But if you go strictly by the 'book' the target probably is 'lost'! Rule VII, E-6.
     
  6. Dale Z

    Dale Z TS Member

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    It would be a No Target HOWEVER once fired upon the result must be scored.
     
  7. rooferbob

    rooferbob Active Member

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    That's a tough one Pat, but I'd say if ya pull the trigger even if you don't call the bird you bought it!
     
  8. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Scorer shouldn't have done this in the first place.

    The shooter has the right to ask to see a target after a no-target or other malfunction/delay. The scorer doesn't have any right to throw targets that no one has asked for.

    BTW, Lost.

    Scott
     
  9. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Dale Z has the correct answer along with the applicable rule reference.

    Regardless of what the puller said, the target was thrown without the shooters call - this is a "No Target" as Dale explained. And, the No Target rules provide the result is scored if shot at in this situation.
     
  10. rooferbob

    rooferbob Active Member

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    Pat, You've asked all of us, but what is your take on it? Personally I think the scorer should have let the guy shoot again as it was a broken bird or something to that affect!
    Rooferbob
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Lets change the question. What would be the correct ruling if the shooter in question would have broken the bird?

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Lost second what if, dead. Jake, Same rule applies.
     
  13. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    The answer to both questions is pretty easy when you are half deaf to begin with. I seldom know what is going on until the event is over and my friends say not even then, but that is what friends are for.
     
  14. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    No Target. Having refereed a lot in registered (dare I say) skeet, the puller/ref has wide discretion. Since the shooter did not call for the target, he/she should not be penalized. I would give another target and not score the shot...just common sense. Ed
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    P3AT- I like the last line in your above post.

    "It may not seem fair or logical, but the rule is clear."

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Pat, AAww..I didn't mean to start an argument...just applying the "common decency" rule. Common decency would say the puller should not have thrown a target...maybe the machine malfunctioned. Did the shooter call for the target? No. Did the puller mistakenly throw the target? Yes. At this point, who is to blame...clearly the puller - or the machine? Did the shooter mistakenly shoot at the target - fearing a "balk" if he didn't shoot in the split second the target came out and he saw it? Yes - a mistake in judgment. So one ref would give a No Target and another would score Lost Target. Which ref will be yelled at...likely the Lost Target ref. Oh well, some days chickens and some days feathers. Actually, I feel strongly both ways but would have given a No Target...the puller didn't yell fast enough. Ed
     
  17. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Pat, You are 100% correct and I believe the rules should be followed to the letter...but this doesn't square with the reality I have seen too many times. We have all seen pullers/refs yelled at and intimidated by aggressive trap and skeet shooters, effectively "bullying" them into a favorable call...unfortunately, that seems to be standard operating procedure in too many cases and the squad members "vote" in other cases. One time, I was refereeing a skeet squad and the top skeet shooter in the country (captain of the open all-american team at that time) from Minnesota got in my face about my call of a lost bird for his friend who was shooting just before him. After his conduct, I told him if this is the way the game is played, so be it...my life is short enough without making it miserable trying to deal with unsportsmanlike conduct in an amateur sport. So, I apologize; my comments are out of order...I have just seen too many "judgment" calls in trap and skeet. Actually, my recent experience is there are just as many in trap as with NSSA...don't know about NSCA. Best Regards, Ed
     
  18. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand how this is even an issue. The scorer announced before he pushed the button that he was simply clearing the trap. He was saying, in effect: "I am clearing the trap, this is "no target." Once he announced that it was not a target, no other actions by a shooter or anyone else had any effect.
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    According the on line rulebook on the ATA website under Section VII E. NO TARGET Paragraph 6 "When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant, provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored."

    I see know problem understanding that rule.

    Big Tuna said "Did the shooter call for the target? No. Did the puller mistakenly throw the target? Yes. At this point, who is to blame...clearly the puller - or the machine? Did the shooter mistakenly shoot at the target - fearing a "balk" if he didn't shoot in the split second the target came out and he saw it? Yes - a mistake in judgment." BT that is a very interesting evaluation you have written. However I have a couple of points that I would like to make to try to rebut your statements.

    "Did the puller mistakenly throw the target? Yes." No I don't agree, Pat stated that the scorer said "let me clear the trap" you asked "Did the shooter mistakenly shoot at the target" Yes the shooter made the mistake not the Puller or the trap therefore the shooter must pay for the mistake if the shooter misses he pays with a loss.

    AS far as this shooter is concerned this rule is not open to interpretation it is cut and dried.

    BT you further stated the top skeet shooter in the country got in my face about my call of a lost bird. You handle it as you see fit. If he had gotten in my face about my call it would have been straitened out before another target was fired at on that squad I guarantee it.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Again, if the shooter would have somehow broken the target, it would have been scored dead. In this case, the shooter missed the target and it should be called lost.

    Pat Ireland
     
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