During a sub event, a shooter gets one broken target and lowers his gun. The scorer says "let me clear the trap". The shooter has good ear plugs and does not hear the scorer. The scorer then pushes the release button as the shooter is mounting his gun and the shooter fires at the target released by the scorer and misses the target. The shooter did not call for the bird. How is this scored?
The Scorer should have called "no bird"! But for his action there would have been no target to shoot at! The Scorer clearly stated he was 'clearing' the trap!---But if you go strictly by the 'book' the target probably is 'lost'! Rule VII, E-6.
Scorer shouldn't have done this in the first place.
The shooter has the right to ask to see a target after a no-target or other malfunction/delay. The scorer doesn't have any right to throw targets that no one has asked for.
Dale Z has the correct answer along with the applicable rule reference.
Regardless of what the puller said, the target was thrown without the shooters call - this is a "No Target" as Dale explained. And, the No Target rules provide the result is scored if shot at in this situation.
Pat, You've asked all of us, but what is your take on it? Personally I think the scorer should have let the guy shoot again as it was a broken bird or something to that affect!
Rooferbob
The answer to both questions is pretty easy when you are half deaf to begin with. I seldom know what is going on until the event is over and my friends say not even then, but that is what friends are for.
No Target. Having refereed a lot in registered (dare I say) skeet, the puller/ref has wide discretion. Since the shooter did not call for the target, he/she should not be penalized. I would give another target and not score the shot...just common sense. Ed
Pat, AAww..I didn't mean to start an argument...just applying the "common decency" rule. Common decency would say the puller should not have thrown a target...maybe the machine malfunctioned. Did the shooter call for the target? No. Did the puller mistakenly throw the target? Yes. At this point, who is to blame...clearly the puller - or the machine? Did the shooter mistakenly shoot at the target - fearing a "balk" if he didn't shoot in the split second the target came out and he saw it? Yes - a mistake in judgment. So one ref would give a No Target and another would score Lost Target. Which ref will be yelled at...likely the Lost Target ref. Oh well, some days chickens and some days feathers. Actually, I feel strongly both ways but would have given a No Target...the puller didn't yell fast enough. Ed
Pat, You are 100% correct and I believe the rules should be followed to the letter...but this doesn't square with the reality I have seen too many times. We have all seen pullers/refs yelled at and intimidated by aggressive trap and skeet shooters, effectively "bullying" them into a favorable call...unfortunately, that seems to be standard operating procedure in too many cases and the squad members "vote" in other cases. One time, I was refereeing a skeet squad and the top skeet shooter in the country (captain of the open all-american team at that time) from Minnesota got in my face about my call of a lost bird for his friend who was shooting just before him. After his conduct, I told him if this is the way the game is played, so be it...my life is short enough without making it miserable trying to deal with unsportsmanlike conduct in an amateur sport. So, I apologize; my comments are out of order...I have just seen too many "judgment" calls in trap and skeet. Actually, my recent experience is there are just as many in trap as with NSSA...don't know about NSCA. Best Regards, Ed
I don't understand how this is even an issue. The scorer announced before he pushed the button that he was simply clearing the trap. He was saying, in effect: "I am clearing the trap, this is "no target." Once he announced that it was not a target, no other actions by a shooter or anyone else had any effect.
According the on line rulebook on the ATA website under Section VII E. NO TARGET Paragraph 6 "When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant, provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored."
I see know problem understanding that rule.
Big Tuna said "Did the shooter call for the target? No. Did the puller mistakenly throw the target? Yes. At this point, who is to blame...clearly the puller - or the machine? Did the shooter mistakenly shoot at the target - fearing a "balk" if he didn't shoot in the split second the target came out and he saw it? Yes - a mistake in judgment." BT that is a very interesting evaluation you have written. However I have a couple of points that I would like to make to try to rebut your statements.
"Did the puller mistakenly throw the target? Yes." No I don't agree, Pat stated that the scorer said "let me clear the trap" you asked "Did the shooter mistakenly shoot at the target" Yes the shooter made the mistake not the Puller or the trap therefore the shooter must pay for the mistake if the shooter misses he pays with a loss.
AS far as this shooter is concerned this rule is not open to interpretation it is cut and dried.
BT you further stated the top skeet shooter in the country got in my face about my call of a lost bird. You handle it as you see fit. If he had gotten in my face about my call it would have been straitened out before another target was fired at on that squad I guarantee it.
Again, if the shooter would have somehow broken the target, it would have been scored dead. In this case, the shooter missed the target and it should be called lost.
In a sport that was once considered a gentlemans game. There has been a constant decline in sportsmanship. Perhaps it is the money that is the cause, but then there are those who lied and cheated to set records that they would have beat in good time if they would have played the game right, and money was not an object to them.So it comes down to strict adherence to the rules. The rules are not perfect and really have been buggered around in the last 30 years, to the point that they are contradicting themselves. Now days if you really wanna bitch about something, you can find a loop hole in the rules.The rule book is clear in that if a whole target is in the air and shot at, the result must be scored. One should figure if it was to be scored any other way the doors of opportunities for inappropriate behavior to rear its ugly head. Now my take would be if it was a program target it would be scored as shot.From there it concerns everyone shooting in that program.However, if I was in a shoot off,then I would push to allow a no target, it is then I want and deserve your best game or it makes my winning/loss a cheap and hollow victory. shoot often/shoot well
twinbirds - If the target is lost during the program targets, it certainly would be lost in a shoot off. My experience is that the rules are more closely followed in a shoot off than in the regular program. For example, a minor foot fault is rarely called in the program targets but is very likely to be noticed in a shoot off.
Pat Ireland,
I am so very glad that your experiences have been so set in stone. Now I encourage you to spend more time at the larger shoots. Perhaps you may need to go incognito, if you are well known. Quite simply the larger the crowd the harder it is to control. You have got more inexperienced people making rule calls, and botching them. Period. My shoot off scenario would be what I'd prefer to give, my option.
BTW What is the call when a squad lacks a lead off shooter and #2 shooter consistently shoots 6 birds off his post, before the puller calls move? Pleas answer carefully, and directly from the rule book.
shoot often/shoot well
The reference for your question is Section VII, Part A, Item 6. The pertinent language states, "...any targets shot after failure to move at the proper time shall be scored."
In the situation you described, the shooter on post two WAS the squad leader.
sissy
PS: You should probably cut Mr. Ireland some slack. He may eventually attend a few large shoots. Until then, we don't want to discourge newbies like Pat.
I would give Mr. Duffy a GREAT BIG hand of applause for being such a GREAT sportsman!!!!!!! He could have taken advantage of the first shooters misfortune, However he chose to be a SUPERIOR competitor.
Dale
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