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Rules Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by justinb, Jul 28, 2008.

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  1. justinb

    justinb TS Member

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    I've been told that this question has been posted on trapshooters before. However when the question arose at a shoot this past weekend there was no definitive conclusion.

    Case in point:
    A lead-off shooter is shooting along and does Not hear the scorers call to change, and inadvertently shoots an extra target from the 3 post. He tells the scorer to mark the extra or 6th target shot from the 3 post as a dead target on the 4 post and proceeds to shoot only 4 targets from the 4 post. Is this the correct procedure and did the shooter follow the rule?

    In the rules under Official scoring "procedure" paragraph 6 it reads
    "it is the duty of the referee/scorer to see that all shooters change posts at the proper time; however, any targets shot after the failure to move at the proper time shall be scored."

    Paragraph 7 reads
    "Inadvertently skipped posts. A shooter is REQUIRED to shoot the requisite number of targets from each post (5 or 10 as specified by the shoot management.)

    Does paragraph 7 only apply to skipped posts? And could you say that the shooter in question was in the process of skipping the post until his fellow shooters informed him of the post change? In paragraph 7 it clearly says that "a shooter is REQUIRED to shoot the requisite number of targets from each post."

    How can a shooter shoot the requisite number of targets from each post if he scores 6 targets on one post and four on the next? It seems to me that we have two exactly opposing rules one paragraph after the other in the rule book. How can you follow one rule without breaking the other?

    The shoot management stated that if the scorer called change then the shooter would have needed to re-shoot the target from the correct post. However if the scorer did not call change then the target should be scored on the next post. So is that to say that if the scorer does not call change then you can stand on one post and shoot your score for the entire trap? This is very confusing.
     
  2. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    I am going to stop providing commentary on these things and just post the rule. 99 people are going to say I am wrong anyway.

    Rule VII.A.6.

    It is the duty of the referee/scorer to see that the shooters change posts at the proper time; however, any targets shot after failure to move at the proper time shall be scored.

    Again, pretty cut and dry, but somehow, it can be construed about 99 different ways. 6 targets on a post, as long as it is not the 5th post (NOTE: not post 5) is scored as is.

    John
     
  3. justinb

    justinb TS Member

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    So does rule VII.A.7 mean nothing?

    How do you pick which rule to follow because obviously you would be breaking one to follow the other. Also you pose a great question where does the 26th target inadvertently shot get scored? To the next trap? or possibly next weeks score?
     
  4. AAtrap

    AAtrap Well-Known Member

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    Justin, I believe that the shoot management made the right call. If the scorer clearly ordered a change, then the shooter would need to shoot that target over. If he fails to do so,then the 6th target would be scored from post one.

    Don't believe anyone would shoot all targets from the same post. Steve
     
  5. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    One more time.

    #7 Refers to completely skipping a post, i.e. going from 1 to 3 or from 5 to 2. Note, those do not need to be shot over, but the shooter will have to shoot the target form the correct post by him/herself.

    VII. A. 7.

    Inadvertently skipped posts. A shooter is required to shoot the requisite number of targets from each post (5 or 10 as specified by shoot management). If a shooter inadvertently skips a post he/she or
    any member of the squad shall not be deemed to be out of turn but will be required to shoot the specified number of targets from the skipped post. While the shooter is shooting the skipped post the remainder
    of the squad will remain behind the trapline and will not proceed to the next trap.

    As for the end of the sub-event: VII. A. 6. (I know it is a long way to look)

    Should more targets be fired in a sub-event than the event calls for, then the excess targets of the sub-event will not be scored.

    So, in THEORY, you could shoot ALL of the targets from the same post if NO ONE catches it, but how realistic would be the chance of this occurring? 99.9% of the time when someone shoots too many from one post, it is the leadoff person and the 2nd shooter catches the problem and they move on.

    Also, even if the puller calls for the move, the target still counts. The puller/referee does not need to throw that 6th target and the shooter should not be punished for shooting at a legal target and hitting it. In this case, shoot management made the WRONG decision, in clear violation of the rule. Not that the rule starts with "It is the duty..." and the says: "HOWEVER,".

    Flame away.

    John
     
  6. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    justinb in the case you mentioned the correct procedure is "paragraph 6 it reads "it is the duty of the referee/scorer to see that all shooters change posts at the proper time; however, any targets shot after the failure to move at the proper time shall be scored"

    When you go to the line if shooting 25 per sub event you only shoot 25 targets if you start on 1 and shoot an extra target on post 4 then you would only shoot 4 targets on post 5. You still would only shoot 25 targets for that sub event.

    jevoliva you said " In this case, shoot management made the WRONG decision, in clear violation of the rule. Not that the rule starts with "It is the duty..." and the says: "HOWEVER,"." I agree the management did make the wrong decision.

    When the referee/scorer calls change and a split second later the number 1 shooters gun goes off the management can't rule that this shooter could have reacted quick enough to stop the shot. If he shot very quickly he obviously didn't hear the call to change. In my experience this usually the way it happens the shot is very close to the call "change".

    I believe that rule 7 doesn't apply in this case is the fact that the rulebook defines the reason in the first 3 words "Inadvertently skipped posts. A shooter is required to shoot the requisite number of targets from each post (5 or 10 as specified by shoot management). If a shooter inadvertently skips a post he/she or any member of the squad shall not be deemed to be out of turn but will be required to shoot the specified number of targets from the skipped
    post." there is a period(.) after the first 3 words and then goes on to say if a shooter inadvertently skips, It doesn't say if the shooter shoots an extra target from a post. Just my opinion but that is how I would read the rule.

    Bob Lawless
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    John and Bob provided excellent answers to this question. Five years ago I was on a squad of experienced shooters where both incidences occurred almost simultaneously. We only had 4 shooters on the squad (no position 2). The lead off shooter shot 6 targets from one post. We stopped the squad and got the score correct (his 6th target counted). But in doing this, he got confused and shot his first target from post three instead of post two. We stopped again and Rick had to go back to post two and shoot the target over. Six on one post and then immediately skipping a post can cause some confusion.

    I will not embarrass the shooter from NC who got confused, but I still often shoot with Rick.

    Pat Ireland
     
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