1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Rules question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by JEB, Aug 20, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JEB

    JEB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    209
    While shooting at the Grand, a lady on my squad had four broken birds in a row. Finally a good target appeared and a piece of one of the broken targets also came out. She cleanly broke the bird. One of the squad members saw the piece and did not realize that there was a good bird also. He called no target, but when informed that the actual bird was good, we all agreed that it was a dead target. Now what would have happened if she missed the target? I think that you could rightfully claim that the piece was a distraction and it should be shot over. Perhaps I am missing something but I do not see this instance in the rules. I should also note that the kids who scored worked under almost impossible conditions -- heat, and did a super job considering, (we always made it a point to thank them after every trap); but they were not familiar with some of the more detailed rules, understandably. Sometimes it just came down to the integrity of the shooters which in my experience never failed.

    John Bergman
     
  2. JEB

    JEB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    209
    I know. That's really my question.

    J Bergman
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    JEB, rule VII,E,3

    "NO TARGET

    . . .3. When a whole target appears on the call of the shooter along with target debris."

    In other words, your squad got it wrong but the rule covers f your other question. And the final part of your post is appreciated, The Sparta workers did a great job and, in the end, depended on the shooters for guidance as do scorers everywhere.

    Neil
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Rule VII E 3- "When a whole target appears on the call of the shooter along with target debris" it shall be ruled a No Target. It must be shot over regardless of the results of the previous shot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,301
    It's "no target", regardless of the result.

    VII, E: "The referee/scorer shall rule “NO TARGET” and allow another target(s)
    in the following instances:
    ....
    3. When a whole target appears on the call of the shooter along with target debris."

    EDIT---Congratulations, Neil, you beat Pat and me by one minute.
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,413
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Also worth noting that there is no allowance in the rules for a "distraction".

    Scott
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    MTA Tom- Neil had not posted when I hit the submit button. We need to speed up a bit.

    How about a hard question with this rule. How much debris is required for a no target? I do sometimes see a very small chip leave the house as the arm swings. This chip does not get above the house and can only be seen from post five. Is this a no target?

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,301
    OK, Pat, I'll concede to both of you.

    And how can you know small specks of "debris" are from a target?
     
  9. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,327
    I won't cite rules or interpretation therein but if I were the scorekeeper and a (very small) piece came out of the trap along with the whole bird and I didn't see it,...the bird and the shot counts.

    JB=Jerry Beach
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Pat, it's a legal target. In that same line of thinking, if there's no shooter on post five, is it still a "no target"?

    I was shooting handicaps at the WV state shoot year before last. A shooter on post four (adamantly) stopped the shooting by saying he saw a piece of the target fly out of the side of the house along with post 3 shooter's bird. He shot the target over and smoked it also. What the guy on post 4 saw was a flitting butterfly going about 3 feet to the side and landed! That was the piece he saw as I'd been watching that same butterfly do that same thing a couple times prior. I spoke up to no avail. Hap
     
  11. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,906
    Scott, You need to become familiar with Skeet. They do have "distractions" allowing for another shot.Strange game,LOL. Some of our shooters need to spend a few hours in a chair to see how much fun it is,NOT. Shoot well, Bob
     
  12. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,083
    You guys sure??? lol

    I shot 16s on Wednesday, and one shooter got a broken bird and shot at, and hit the biggest piece.

    We all waited for him to shoot again, but finally we told him that he had to shoot it over again.

    When we were done with that round, he was heard to say, "Back home, (he was from Pennsylvania) if you shot a broken bird and hit it, it counted".

    I'm hoping he was maybe shooting ATA for the first time, as I'm sure everyone knows that you shoot over again, no matter the results.

    Hauxfan!
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Jerry B- I will define what you asked for as a visible piece. It is larger than an invisible piece and it is larger than dust but smaller than a ripe watermelon. Now, based on my definition we can go forward with circular arguments that may be fun but only take us back to where we began. How about "I can't describe it with words but I know it when I see it". That was good enough for the US Supreme Court.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,330
    Location:
    Shawnee, Kansas, USA
    OK, here's a twist on this question. Really happened.

    Shooter to my right calls for a target, gets a complete/whole target, and simultaneously sees what appears to be an orange piece of debris come out.

    Shooter does not shoot.

    All on the line, including the scorer, now see what was thought to be a piece of debris was actually a monarch butterfly.

    We decided it was a "no target" and he re-shot.

    Were we correct???
     
  15. CharlesR1100

    CharlesR1100 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    436
    NO, you were not correct. But you were fair and reasonable. That was a good squad. It was a good call. But you were factually all wrong.

    The rule should (can) be written so as to include reasonable (but wrong) beliefs. That is the human element. As long as there is a human element in the decision, there will be "right" calls which are factually wrong. I can live with it.
     
  16. hoov

    hoov Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    130
    Not sure I agree with the other squad member calling no target.This would be the job of the scorer would it not? {E}
     
  17. Jim Brown (the puller)

    Jim Brown (the puller) TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    131
    To me, the difference between a visible piece and dust is the way each moves. Dust floats in the air and is moved by the wind. A visible piece has a trajectory that I can track visually.
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Pat I think that the important thing to remember here is that the only stipulation that the rule makes is that it appears at the same time as the target. It does not state that it must be target debris or what size it has to be if you can see it it and it is not the target it must be debris.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,301
    Bob

    The rule (VII, E, 3) refers only to "target debris".
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Ever watched Olympic shoot-offs? Dust off the target counted as a dead bird? Will we have to resort to video cameras for instant re-play to measure those "fine" chips or know for certain it was a butterfly or a whole target?

    How upsetting it could it be for a shooter sailing along with a good run and have an azz claim "broken target debris seen" as the clay emerged!

    To prevent this "calling" another's target illegal, why not allow the scorer/shooter himself make that call? He shoots at it, it belongs to him. I'm talking a whole sailing bird here, not a flipping cripple which is obviously broken coming out. We have way too many rules as it is for such a simple contest with more in the works. As it stands, even our rule makers can't agree with or on a lot of interpretations among themselves. I'd like to think the "KISS" application would work just fine in shotgunning. "IS?" Hap
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.