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Rules Question - Windy Day

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by birdshooter, May 6, 2007.

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  1. birdshooter

    birdshooter TS Member

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    Over the weekend I shot a shoot that was particularly windy. The target setters did an excellent job setting targets. They were both staked and checked by radar. If there had been absolutely no wind the targets would have been perfect, read this legal. Even in the wind the Pat-Traps were well-tuned and not throwing bad targets. On this day, a good amount of the time the targets were dancing in the wind, however I saw very few truly illegal targets.

    I watched one of the 'top' shooters dismiss target after target (out of 100s bird he probably dismissed one third, certainly 8-10 per trap) ... While I was not on the squad, I was close enough to observe (see and hear) him shooting and the birds that were thrown. He would call for the target. The target would be presented promptly (neither early, nor late). He would start tracking the target. The wind would grab the target and make it stutter, or dance or something and the 'top' shooter would dismount his gun. (Keep in mind that this all happened in parts of a second.) He would wait a moment and remount and recall for the target. Eventually the scorer actually threw up his hands and one could see that the other shooters on this gentleman's squad were disturbed.

    I can find very explicit ATA rules relating to what a legal target is. I cannot find a rule/guidelines that suggest that the 'wind' can cause an illegal target. My read of the ATA rules (paraphrased here) is that if a legal target is thrown promptly and is turned down by the shooter that it is marked 'Lost' and the next shooter shoots. If I had been scoring or the referee, each time the shooter did this (or certainly after the second or third time), I would have turned off the voice calls and asked the shooter, 'What was wrong with the bird?' If he gave me a reasonable reason (late bird, early bird, flinch, etc) I would have marked the bird a 'Failure to Fire'. If the shooter did not give me a reasonable reason, I would have marked it 'Lost'.

    So, based on this story, I have a four part question...:

    1) If I had been scoring/refereeing, would I have acted appropriately?
    2) What are the correct rules that apply to these circumstances?
    3) What should the scorer do in this situation?
    4) What (ideally) should the squad members do when they encounter this situation?

    Thx in advance for your thoughts.

    birdshooter-
     
  2. birdshooter

    birdshooter TS Member

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  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Am easy, and non disrupting way for a scorer to handle such a situation is to announce after the first incident-- First Failure to Fire. This gives the shooter the benefit of the doubt and ends the practice.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. birdshooter

    birdshooter TS Member

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    Good Evening Folks,

    In case it is not obvious, IMHO this forum is not an appropriate place to name names/places. That being said, I see this forum is a fine place to have a discourse on the application of the rules of our fine sport, and indirectly a commentary on the loss of the honor that is intrinsic to the game. I participate and read this board with the intent to learn something.

    As a shooter with limited years of experience, I have been greeted by situations where a fellow shooter surprises me and acts with questionable integrity. I do not always know how I should respond at that moment. I will often say/do nothing even though I am sure that something is wrong. I then circle back with one of my betters to educate me on the issue. I am generally a person that abides by rules. An individual that skirts or purposely ignores them is an anathema to me.

    The shooter that I referred to in my opening soliloquy is real. If it would help the discussion, please call him Joe and know that he shot at BFE Trap Club in Nevada.

    My interest in advice/comments from the elder statesmen and any other honorable shooter on this board remains real. When faced with a situation such as the one that I described, how does one 'properly' deal with it?

    By the way, Thank You to Pat, jbbor, jim_kneecricket and even texshooter for your helpful thoughts/advice.

    Happy Shooting,

    birdshooter-
     
  5. Etiquette

    Etiquette Member

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    Names should probably not be posted on this site unless approved by that person. I would think that to use ones name is a personal attack and not in line with the web rules.

    Posting Etiquette

    Posts shall not contain profanity, name-calling, hate, untruths, personal attacks, or anything of an inappropriate nature. This is a news and information site. Offenders may be warned or simply have their passwords disabled. Please abide by this basic code of conduct. Repeat violators will be contacted. Thank you.
     
  6. JEB

    JEB Active Member

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    This past weekend my wife and I were shooting in high winds in eastern PA. At one post while she was shooting, the wind set off the voice release 4 or 5 times. Naturally she did not shoot at those birds. When that round was finished the scorer came over and told her that she cannot turn down birds just because the wind catches them and that you are allowed only two fail to fires, (she knows that quite well after watching me flinch for some time before changing to a release). What he did not know is that she never called for the birds, confirmed by the rest of the squad, hear did not hear her one way or the other, the wind was too strong and he was too far back. Thinking it over, I believe that he was wrong about the fail to fire also. It's one thing to not to fire involuntarily and quite different a different thing to turn down a bird because you don't like them. IMHO if it starts off legal and the wind takes it, either you shoot at it, or it is lost.

    JEB
     
  7. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Do gun or ammo malfunctions count as "Failure to Fire" in Trap rules? I have not seen a rule book and do not honestly know. Thanks, Ed
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Sure, Ed. Both are. But most of what has been written about above are _not_ failures to fire and are lost birds, that's all.

    There seems to be near-complete misunderstanding of FTF. Hit the books, TS.com!

    Neil
     
  9. Jerbear

    Jerbear TS Member

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    It could also be interpreted as a disrupting the harmony of the shoot.

    This guys an ass!!! we all shoot in the wind. get over it.



    Jerbear
     
  10. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately I have not witnessed very many situations of target management as described here. Rather than have a direct confrontation with the target manager involved, I would probably have a chat with our delegate or the shoot management and if this did not solve the problem, I would probably not shoot at that particular club again.
     
  11. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    I was at a shoot in Brigham City, Utah yesterday. It was fairly windy, and on one trap in the singles we had several targets that were far beyond the usual norms, well over 15 feet high when they should have been about 9.5 feet. I turned down at least two, and at least two others on my squad turned down targets also. I actually thought that it was a handset trap with an inexperienced kid placing the targets on the arm cocked. It turned out it was a PAT trap. Then there was a stretch where it started throwing them extremely low and right. We stopped and asked for someone to come fix the trap. If a trap is malfunctioning or the weather is causing occasional targets to fly wildly different from most of the others, I believe there is nothing in the rules that forces the shooter to attempt to shoot them. I'm not talking mildly different here, but random targets under six feet high or over fifteen feet high at the usual distance aren't right.
     
  12. ljutic73

    ljutic73 Well-Known Member

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    I shoot in southern Alberta...on days like this when it's blowing left to right from the west at 30+mph.....we try our best to set targets in the morning before it's really starts to howl and then it's "hold a high gun and shoot 'em quick"!!
     
  13. Porcupine

    Porcupine Active Member

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    I shoot at a very small club in the northeast where trap shooters are NOT allowed to turn down a clay unless it comes out broken. Every clay must be shot at, and we use use Hole #3. This club features a very hard left that must be hit before it gets eaten by the trees, otherwise lost target. We also shoot into the sun. We are proud to have the hardest targets in the area, and there are no shortage of shooters. As I said, this is a very small club.

    Porcupine
     
  14. southpark

    southpark TS Member

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    Well, after reading this, I'm still not sure what the official rule is regarding wind affecting targets.

    Once in Tucson my squad shot at targets that were going crazy, mostly way too high due to a headwind.

    The next squad came in and refused to shoot them and had the trap changed to throw them lower.

    We all looked at one another not realizing we didn't have to shoot them either.

    This was at the state shoot or Spring Grand.

    Is this right? How do you know when you can ask to have them changed?

    When can you refuse to shoot them? Could the guy talked about in the original post be right and everyone else just foolish?

    Not being sure of the rule, however, I liked Pat Ireland's advice regarding what the scorer should have said to the guy.
     
  15. maudie

    maudie TS Member

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    Pat Ireland:

    Did I read your post correctly???!!! A "failure to fire" is just that - the shooter ATTEMPTS TO SHOOT and his gun doesn't fire properly, for whatever reason. That's a far cry from simply turning down a legal target without any attempt to shoot. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THE FFL RULE BE USED TO "POLITELY" TELL A CHEATING SHOOTER NOT TO TURN DOWN ADDITIONAL LEGAL TARGETS. What you advocate has the obvious effect of giving a shooter a target illegally, which can be the difference between winning and losing an event. I hate to see a delegate, albeit a former one, advocating such a practice. IMHO you ought to know better. Jeff Voiles.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Devil's - Same rules every day. A shooter may ask the management to look at the targets at any time. If the management concludes that they are set the best they can do, the shooter can shoot them or withdraw.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    interesting question. i suspect the "correct" answer lies somewhere in the middle and depends in large part on context. at least that is how i would make my rules interpretation if i were referee for the day.

    for example, i was present at a SCTP shoot on saturday and the wind blew HARD. extremely strong gusts from a quartering headwind. maybe as strong as 50mph. that the kids shot as well as they did under those conditions is testament to their stick-to-itiveness (yes, it's a word). one of the challenges faced by shooter and referee alike was that there were no voice releases, the targets were all hand pulled, often by the scorer doing double duty. tough assignment! when the wind is howling and you have kids calling for targets there are inevitably a number of calls not heard by the puller and sounds heard by the puller that were not made by the shooter.

    targets flew at random.

    i watched several of the more accomplished shooters refuse targets, several more than once, one many times. should they have been penalized under the rules interpretation? after thinking about this for a couple of days i say no. nobody really got an unfair advantage from seeing extra targets or refusing a difficult shot - they were ALL difficult. This was a legitimate case where it would have been unfair to penalize the shooter for refusing targets.

    i may be wrong but that's the way i saw it saturday.

    ps. i can't imagine how tough it must have been to be ready and have a target from the adjacent trap come flying over onto your trap as you call for your bird. the wind really blew hard.
     
  18. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    jbbor, Thanks for the link to the rule book. I appreciate your help.
    Best Regards, Ed
     
  19. southpark

    southpark TS Member

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    Jeff, I wouldn't take Pat Ireland to task for his answer. If I remember correctly, the prospect of cheating was discussed when the two FTF rule was instituted. It is two FTF for any reason. This avoids, I assume, the difficulty of trying to discern whether the failure to fire was for a proper reason or not.
     
  20. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    southpark

    You're dead wrong. It's NOT "two FTF for any reason". It's two FTF's/sub-event, but ONLY if the failure was not voluntary.
     
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