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Rules question -- walking from 5 to 1...

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jevoliva, Jun 17, 2008.

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  1. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    This came up at the Illinois State Shoot this weekend. I was shooting a practice on Sunday for the handicap event. Sometimes when I walk from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3, I will step behind the 27 yard post (I shoot from the 27) to allow the shooters walking from 5 to 1 to use the walkway. I have done this for about 8 years now. When I did this, one of the shooters made a beeline around me as I stood behind the 27 yard line. He informed me after we were done shooting that if he was caught walking in front of me, it is an automatic 30 days suspension for the first offense, a 6 month suspension for the second and a 1 year suspension for the third... all automatic. I searched the rule book and only could find a rule about walking from post to post with the gun loaded, either open or closed. Anyone know of suspensions that were handed down from the EC regarding a situation like this?

    Thanks,

    John
     
  2. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    I found part of it....

    "12. A contestant shall place a live shell in his/her gun only when on a
    post facing the traps. In Singles and Handicap shooting he/she may
    place only one (1) live shell in his/her gun at a time and must remove
    it or the empty shell(s) before moving from one post to another. In
    Doubles shooting he/she may place two (2) live shells in his/her gun at
    a time and must remove both live or empty shells before moving from
    one (1) post to another. In changing from one (1) post to another, the
    shooter shall not walk in front of the other competitors."

    Now for the suspension part...
     
  3. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    I've never heard of anyone being suspended for this but rarely have I witnessed this either. Mostly with mid yardage shooters when viewed or on wet days with standing water and shooters walk to the 16 yd. line to move across.
     
  4. cls

    cls Member

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    <i>"He informed me after we were done shooting that if he was caught walking in front of me, it is an automatic 30 days suspension for the first offense, a 6 month suspension for the second and a 1 year suspension for the third..."</i>

    Nonsense...

    cls
     
  5. bocephus

    bocephus Member

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    Never heard of suspension but always walk behind the other shooters, NEVER in front of them. And one other point, always turn to the right when going from station 5 to 1.
     
  6. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    It's always been walking behind other competitors when moving from #5 to #1 but I've never heard of any suspension issue; just plain standard practice.....Bob Dodd
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    There is a rule (correctly quoted above) that states a shooter shall not walk in front of other shooters when changing posts. This rule is intended to mean that when walking from post 5 to post 1, you should not walk in front of the other four shooters. However, if a shooter moves from five to one and walks behind the other four shooters, there are four shooters walking in front of that shooter. The rule means that one shooter can not walk in front of four shooters, but four shooters can walk in front of one shooter. Despite the logic problem with the rule, it is not a bad rule. In singles and doubles, I do not want a shooter moving from 5 to 1 by walking in front of the singles line.

    The rule is covered under the safety section of the book. Violations of safety rules can result in sanctions as described in John's first post. But, the shooter quoted by John did not fully understand the intent of the "walking rule" and the safety sanctions that could be applied to safety violations.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I have always stepped back a yard after arriving at my next post to allow the shooter coming from my right to walk in front of me. I thought I was just being courteous!

    Ed
     
  9. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    I understand the "unloaded gun between stations" rule. Given that, I think the "no walking in front of" rule is redundant and a rule in search of a problem. I have often done as Ed does and do not see an issue. Even in 16 yard events, if the shooter moving from 5 to 1 has to walk in mud or water to go behind me and I am on my position, I will step back on my walkway and let the moving shooter pass on the front walk rather than go through water or mud. I think that ss the courteous and gentlemanly thing to do. If there was a real issue, I suspect we would have all heard of related suspensions and I, for one, have not. If they want to suspend me, I will provide my shooting schedule.

    Bob
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    There are no automatic suspensions for any of this. There's no problem with what you are all doing either. This comes up every year or so and fades away. We need a rule to keep someone from walking in front of ready shooters on the way from 5 to 1. What do you suggest? Common sense usually works - is this rule really a problem? Why?

    Neil
     
  11. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Good morning Neil

    ...is this rule really a problem? Why?

    This rule is not a problem if it is not enforced. Is it enforced? If it's not enforced, who needs it? I think "keep it simple" is the cardinal rule of rules.

    Bob
     
  12. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    I am glad to see that I am not the only one doing this. I too, thought this was the courteous thing to do, and I will often step back a yard instead of up depending on space, conditions of the ground, etc. I don't think it really necessitates a rule change -- when this guy challenged me, I did not have my rule book on me, which usually ends discussions like this very quickly -- I just go fetch the book, hand it to the guy and ask him to point the rule and the automatic suspensions.

    Thanks!

    John
     
  13. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    John -

    Another example of the hilarity that can ensue when people start quoting a rulebook. I've found that most people's knowledge of the rulebook is based on what they heard from someone else, and it's a pretty good bet that the person they heard from didn't get it from the book either.

    At the GLG this year it was cold so I was wearing my Storm jacket and had my shell box in the pocket instead of in my leather pouch like usual. I was shooting lead-off and couldn't see my shells in my pocket and ended up shooting at 6th shot on post 2. Scorekeeper (an adult) was adamant that I had to re-shoot the extra shot after I moved, even though I know the rule is that the extra shot counted and the #2 man would then be leading off the next post. She eventually accepted my explanation but said she was going to check on it after the round.

    The next event I was on the same bank and had the same scorer. She recognized me and told me that she checked and found out that I was correct, my extra shot did count. However, she said the proper procedure was to have everyone else on the squad shoot an extra shot from the post they were on before we moved. She told me that came from one of the higher-ups on the MTA board. LOL.

    Like you I carry a rulebook and ask for people to point out the rule - and I can't recall anyone finding the rule that they were so sure about just 5 minutes earlier.

    Scott
     
  14. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    No, we both had are guns unloaded and open. In doing a quick search on the rule book while I was there before I shot the event, the only rule I could find at that time was the rule about moving from post to post with a loaded gun, either open or closed.

    Scott -- I always have one in my bag ready to go -- I just went and shot the practice without my bag, so therefore no rule book on me.

    Everyone should look at Rule II.C. Rules of Conduct of an ATA Shooter -

    "Each member will be furnished a copy of these Official Trapshooting Rules,
    and it is assumed that the member will read and understand each rule.
    Members are strongly encouraged to know these Rules and abide by them
    for their own benefit and for the benefit of other shooters."

    Then on Rule II.C.1. -

    "By entering the competition, every contestant agrees to accept all official
    decisions and to abide by these Rules."

    John
     
  15. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Shawn

    I can see that on the 27 you would step ahead to clear the walk. On the 16 you would have to step back to clear the walk. Seems like the courteous thing to do. This is especially true if you have a chair shooter on your squad. Clear the walk rather than have them struggle to negotiate the mud or rough terrain between the walks.

    FWIW

    Bob
     
  16. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    At the clubs I've frequented since '73 and all in the far west, I've never seen an experienced/registered shooter even attempt to walk in front of the other four shooters and it's common to see those advancing from posts 1 through 4 to take a step forward, even on the 16 yard line, instead of back if there is limited space for the fellow making the long journey.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  17. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Just shoot with Neil, always a rule book handy....

    ;-)

    JC

    Hell, Michigan
     
  18. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    Had the same thing happen to me at the U.S. Open, the guy just wanted to show that he was an "Expert" on the rules and recomened that I read them all. Learned my lesson when walking from 5 to 1 I walk behind even in the mudd.

    Ronbo
     
  19. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Ronbo -- it very well could have been the same guy...
     
  20. quicksand

    quicksand Guest

    Don't see how any rule that controls where shooters must stand during a walk could be strictly enforced. The few times that I have had to shoot 16's in the snow, the common practice is for most shooters to step back, let the shooter making the post (5-1) change have the right-of-way on the cleared cement, then the other shooters step back to the line AND THEN load the guns.

    This is especially true for us low-yardage handicap shooters in the snow.

    It seems to me that being courteous when required makes sense. Again, I do not load my gun until I am at my assigned post and the squad is ready.

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
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