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RULES QUESTION- STILL CONFUSED

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by ddrsuz, Jun 25, 2008.

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  1. ddrsuz

    ddrsuz Member

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    After failing to pull up the answer thru search, I went to the ATA rule book and noticed that Rules Section VII, A.5 thru A.7, seem to be somewhat contradictory. I would be interested in how the following situations are handled:

    1.Scorer forgets to call for change and an extra shot or two is fired from a station. It is my understanding that per A.6, the targets are scored and then you move to the correct station. This seems in conflict with A.7 (shoot the requisite number of targets from each station)

    2.As an extrapolation of Scenario 1, what if you shot an extra 5 at the original station ( grated someone would have to be way asleep at the wheel). If you moved to the next station, you would have more targets than the subevent called for, so A.5 would say to not count them. You would also be afoul of A.7

    To handle all the scenarios, shouldn't you just not count shots after a failure to change?
    Thanx for any input,
    dennis
     
  2. nipper

    nipper TS Member

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    here is my guess,will be nice to see how close i am to correct.

    1- squad leader should of stopped and asked/questioned scorer,then moved

    2- targets over should count toward next station,would/could be a lot of wasted money down range if targets didnt count toward next station.

    ---this is a guess and only a guess---
     
  3. ddrsuz

    ddrsuz Member

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    nipper:
    agreed as to not wasting targets, but in the truly goofy scenario of just continuing to shoot from one station, you could make the argument that if you shot all 25 from station 3, when it all got figured out and you moved to station 4, you were all done.

    Smarter minds will certainly intervene

    ?????
    d
     
  4. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    OK, here we go...

    5 man sqaud. Everyone shoots their first 5 targets. Instead of calling change, the lead-off man shoots and extra target from post 1. Scorer realizes he/she forgot to call change and calls it now. Squad moves one post, and for this second post ONLY, the lead-off man is now the second shooter. The 6th target the leadoff man shot counts and is recored.

    A.7. refers to skipping a post. say you are a two man squad shooting 2 & 4. once the guy on post 4 is done shooting, he moves to post 1 by mistake. He shoots the 5 targets on post 1 and realizes his mistake. by A.7, he is not out of turn (meaning all targets shot would be null), but will now have to go to post 5 AND SHOOT BY HIMSELF to make up the 5 targets he skipped. A.6 deals with shooting too many targets on one post and it is pretty cut and dry. If you shoot 6 on a post, then all 6 count and you shoot 4 on the next. The only time this would not apply would be when you are on your last post of the sub-event -- then the extra targets have just become practice for you (A.5).

    Clear as mud?

    John
     
  5. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Move and shoot them, all targets count, unless they are after the 25.
     
  6. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    jevoliva, You win the prize, proceed to cashout window.

    Your explanation is exactly what happened during the doubles shootoff at the GLG.

    Jim Chapman

    Hell, Michigan
     
  7. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    The rules olny exist in your imagination. At least that's what I found out at the florida state shoot. The shoot mgmt and ata rep deaide what they want to do to hell with the book english language or common sense. Joe
     
  8. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    T.J. Arvas for Florida ATA Delgate!
     
  9. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    and none of the extras should have been counted
     
  10. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Frank -

    The point of the thread is to clarify that the extra's SHOULD HAVE been counted.

    Scott
     
  11. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Ok. I was at the state shoot this year and was shooting from post two. On my first target that I attempted to shoot in the preliminary singles on Friday; the Shooter on post three mounted his gun on my call not when i fired. I shot the target and it was a hit. The next time I attempted to shoot a target the same thing happened. I did not shoot the target due to this distraction a clear violation of the rules. When i did not fire I was looking at a shooter next to me with his gun completely up to his shoulder! I thought my look at him was enough. I then shot the target A hit. then on the third and fourth targets I attempted he kept his gun down and I scored hits. On the fifth target shooter 3 again starts to mount his gun on my call. I turned down the target and told the scorer that I did not have a failure to fire but a rules violation by shooter 3 and would she please reprimand him. I was told by the rude **** that if I did not shoot an any subsequent targets she was scoring them as losses regardless of shooter 3 and his misconduct which she had not observed.

    I asked her to get the AtA rep and was told by an annoyed arrogant ignorant scorer to get them my self she would not and that If I did not shoot the target now she was scoring it as a loss.

    I had to walk off the line and go to the office and ask for a shoot official and was directed to classification. The Individual who came out told me he was a shoot official and an AtA rep. We went out and observed the squad which I was shooting on complete the first 25 targets. On about 60-70 percent of the targets attempted by shooter one shooter 3 was in the process of mounting his gun before shooter ones gun had gone off. The shoot official told me that "that's just ( ) he's ok just a bit anxious and he can do anything he wants while I'm shooting as long as the stock Is not on his shoulder.

    I asked him to show me in the rules book and was told I'll show you when your done shooting. I asked to be re-squaded or to shoot the remaining targets on the make up trap as I felt I should not have to endure shooting next to this Ignorant Florida good ole boy resident. I was then informed you'll shoot your targets where your squaded you have no remaining failure to fires and that he did not see anything wrong with the conduct of shooter 3. If you refuse a target for any reason It's a lost target.

    The official did ask the shooter to try to keep his gun down. We resumed shooting at the start of the second 25. Things went well for about 15 targets and then he did it again.
    Well my first reaction was to stop shooting but I already was told if I don't pull the trigger it's going to be a loss well I tried to shoot at it about 10 feet off the ground and lost the target. Now I did think about his movement and was upset and I dropped a target because of my own mental deficiencies.

    When I left the line at the completion of the second 25 Dave the shooter on post 1 walked over to me and told me that when i left he lost a target for the same reason that I had. He couldn't believe it since he was on one and the next shooter was on three.
    I ran the back half for a 98 ok but not good.

    I was told to ware blinders but that doesn't help a shadow right in front of you. Where in the trap shooting book is there a requirement to wear blinders.

    I'm just saying that the good ole boys in Florida make it up as they go along.
    Joe Goldberg
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Joe- It is unfortunate that you did not carry a rule book and point out
    Rule IV I 14. The person you described clearly violated this rule.

    On the original question posed on this thread, it is the scorers responsibility to have the contestants move after five shots. If the scorer fails in this responsibility and a shooter shoots 6 targets form a post, the shooter is not penalized because of the scorers failure.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Pat, I asked them to get the book and read the rule I recited it to them almost verbatim. I didn't have a book with them but they had stacks of them in the office at the shoot. Joe
     
  14. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    "We wound up with 3 State officials till they told us to move and continue where we left off. apparently they'd never encountered massive stupid."

    That's funny, I don't care who you are.

    As for gun fitter's situation -- this is the exact reason I ALWAYS have a rule book in my bag. Rule IV I 14 is:

    "14. A contestant may hold his/her gun in any position when it is his/her
    turn to shoot. The contestant must in no manner interfere with the
    preceding shooter by raising his/her gun to point or otherwise create
    an observable distraction."

    As for your failure to fires -- those are per SUB EVENT -- so after the first sub-event (be it 25 or 50 targets) your FTFs reset to two. So on the second 25, you could have turned down two additional targets. Rule VII D 1:

    "A contestant shall be allowed two (2) failures to fire in Singles and
    Handicap events, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C.,2.
    above, during each sub-event regardless of the length of the sub-event.
    When the first or second allowable Failure to Fire in any sub-event
    occurs, the contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire at another
    target, and the result of the shot will be scored in accordance with
    these Official Rules. During shoot-offs for All Around and High Over
    All events shooters will be allowed 1 Failure to Fire in each of the three
    (3) disciplines (Singles, Handicap, Doubles)."

    So, the puller was technically correct on the first 25 -- if you turned down the third target (as long as the target was whole and not illegal) it would have been a lost target, regardless of what the guy next to you was doing. I would have recommended to have you resquad at no charge OR pulled the other guy off the squad, depending on the circumstance. Since I was not there, I do not know what I would have done for sure. Then again, would he be considered to be "disrupting the harmony of the shoot"?

    John
     
  15. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    I almost insisted to be resquaded and was told no go I even asked for a refund at the point that I had inly shot 4 targets and was told no. There is a problem that when the shoot mgmt wants to do somthing ( ) the rules they do what they want atleast at one club in florida. Joe
     
  16. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    SECTION V
    SINGLES AND DOUBLES EVENTS
    A. 16 YARD SINGLES
    This event must be shot 5 or 10 shots at each post from 16 yards with
    each shooter in order shooting at one target until all have shot 5 or
    10 times, and then rotating in a clockwise manner to the next post.
    Should Shoot Management elect to change to 50, 16-yard targets per
    trap (10 per post) after a shooter has made entry, the shooter must
    be allowed the option to withdraw and be refunded or change his/her option entry.

    5 or 10, not 6 or 7.......
     
  17. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    Section 7 A6. It is the duty of the referee/scorer to see that the shooters change
    posts at the proper time; however, any targets shot after failure to move
    at the proper time shall be scored.

    OK, so.if you lead off and don't like the shoot post 5 targets just go ahead and shoot a 6th from post 4, it HAS to be counted.....what a stupid rule....goes against all logic!
     
  18. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Frank -

    Good to see at least you've come around to recognize that your initial comment about not counting the targets isn't right.

    Not sure it goes against all logic, however.

    Scott
     
  19. nipper

    nipper TS Member

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    im sure glad this is clearer now :))

    Bill
     
  20. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Frank, it generally only happens when the leadoff man can't count and the scorer isn't paying attention!!
     
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