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Rules quesstion - doubles?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by gunner, Jul 19, 2007.

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  1. gunner

    gunner TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    What's the difference in "doubling" and "machine gunning" in Rule VII, D, 3? Came up the other day when a guy shooting release/pull "shot twice" at the first bird. No problem found with trigger, but sounded like a machine gun. The shooter said that he didn't mean to (did not deliberately) shoot the second barrel. Some said that "doubling" only applies to over/unders, and "machine gunning" only applies to autoloaders. We ruled lost pair, since he shot twice at the first bird. Other opinions? (He missed with the first barrel, but does that matter?)
     
  2. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen several O/U's that fired both shots just as Pat describes above. In all but one case, the guns had "release/pull" triggers in them. I can see why this would be pretty common with these triggers if you aren't really carful and paying attention......Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  3. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Pat..... I had a Browning Citori that I foolishly let Doug Hubbart, in Arizona, work on the triggers for me. When I got it back, I shot it for doubles, and the first time I pulled the trigger, it doubled on me. I figured it was something I did, so I reloaded the gun and shot at another pair. It doubled again! Talk about something that will really ring your bell! The gun had never done anything like that before I sent it to have the triggers tuned. I sent that gun back to him 3 seperate times to try to get it repaired, and EVERY time I got it back, it would do the same thing. He never did fix the gun, but, that's another story in itself. If you have a gun double on you a couple times, you learn right away the difference between machine gunning and doubling........Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    This is a very interesting question that has arisen a few times when I am shooting doubles.

    The rule clearly states that "when a defective gun" doubles, in an O/U or machine guns in an automatic, it is a failure to fire. I have on occasion caused my gun to shoot two shells very rapidly because of lack of trigger control. This does sound like a machine gun operation but was caused by my finger and not a gun malfunction.

    If the "machine gun" was a result of my finger, the pair should be scored. I have several times seen this circumstance incorrectly called a failure to fire. When it happens to me, I correct the ruling to a lost pair.

    If the "doubling" is a result of a gun problem, it is a failure to fire. If it is caused by a trigger control error, the pair should be scored as shot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    " (He missed with the first barrel, but does that matter?) "

    Yes it does when shooting doubles. The "machine gunning" is a FTF but because he missed the first bird it is a lost pair.

    Jason
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Jason -

    I believe you are confusing this with the other doubles rule for FTF - which says that if you miss the first target you are not allowed a FTF on the second target. The rule listed above is specifically for doubling/machine gunning, whereas the rule I mention is in regard to a "normal" pair where you shoot at the first target and the move to and try to shoot at the second target. A good example is someone using a semi-auto who shoots/misses the first target and then the second round jams and is unable to be fired. That would be a lost pair - no FTF on a second target if the first is lost. However, if the first target was hit then you are allowed an FTF on the second target. This prevent someone who misses the first target from not shooting the second and claiming a FTF and getting to shoot the pair over.

    Scott
     
  7. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    Pat,

    You employ a couple interesting phrases in your response - both leading in the direction of a lost bird:

    "...lack of trigger control.."

    Interesting, because some might say that a "flinch" is a lack of trigger control...but we don't say "lost bird" in that case - anymore.

    "...was a result of my finger..."

    -So - if it "was a result of your brain" - again - we'd invoke the MULLIGAN RULE.

    In a thread a few months ago, you boasted of your prowess at arguing either side of an argument, with equal effectiveness.

    Hey, you made a believer out of me.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Scott- You are absolutely correct.

    buzzgun- We have rules that are clear. But, as you pointed out clear rules may or may not be consistent.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    I just think that the way that the rule is written doubling and machine gunning are quite different yet the rule doesn't seem to see a difference

    Section VII Official scoring Paragraph D Failure To Fire 3,Machine-gunning or doubling only occurs when in Doubles Events
    both shotshells fire simultaneously in a break open gun, or two (2)
    shots are fired with a single operation of the trigger in an autoloading
    gun, rendering the competitor incapable of firing at the second target
    because both shotshells have fired. When a defective gun malfunctions
    and doubles or machine guns, whether or not the first target would
    have been scored “DEAD” or “LOST” and whether or not either target
    is legal or illegal, the referee/scorer shall rule this occurrence a Failure
    to Fire and score it accordingly.

    I read that to say that in a break open gun others would not hear two distinct shots. Machine gunning in an auto you would be able to hear the two shots because of the bolt throw time. Yet the rule sees no difference in relation to the difference.

    Pat you are correct this is a very interesting thread.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    The doubling rule seems odd in that you get a do-over even if you have missed the first target. It seems to me if you miss with 2 1/4 oz of shot, you have well and truly missed, and the best you should expect is a try at the second target, the first having been established as lost.
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Harold I one possible explanation for this might be because if under the FTF rule you establish the first target as lost it is a lost pair there is no do-over(FTF) I am not sure but it could have something to do with it.

    Bob Lawless
     
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