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Rule ? - W/D from shoot

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jevoliva, Jun 24, 2007.

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  1. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Here's an easy one, but it took us forever to find the rule.

    Handicap program today, shooter shoots first 5 targets of first sub-event. Hits all 5, but after 5th target, his gun malfunctions to the point that he cannot shoot. He decides to withdraw from the event.

    How is his score reported to the ATA?

    a. 0/0 - effecively did not shoot the event b/c he did not complete first sub-event<br>
    b. 0/0 - same as above, but the reason is that he did not complete his first two sub-events.<br>
    c. 0/0 - same as above, but because he prevented by reasons beyond his control to finish the sub-event.<br>
    d. 5/25 - because if shooter W/D or is DQ'd, his targets count for however many sub-events he shot<br>
    e. 5/50 - essentially choices D+B<br>
    f. 5/100 - because if shoot W/D or is DQ'd, his tagets count for however many targets the event is for.<br>
    g. None of the above.<br>

    Which one is the most correct answer and why. I will grant you, there is a small window of interpertation of this rule, depending on who's fault it is that his gun broke.

    Have fun!

    John
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Two conflicting rules are in place to cover this incident. Rule VII C 4 (page 29) states that the score should be reported to the ATA as 5/25. But, the same paragraph contains a second "rule" that will allow a club to determine that the shooter involuntarily withdrew, and under this clause, no score would be reported to the ATA.

    Four years ago I made an impassioned plea to the EC and the B of D to make our rules consistent on this question. My plea was rejected on the grounds that the local clubs were in a better position to make the determination of how the scores would be reported. There was concern about a shooter withdrawing due to a "fake" gun problem during a poorly shot sub-event.

    That same year, at the NC State shoot my gun broke after my +-7th shot in the first sub-event. The NC delegate ruled that I involuntarily withdrew and no score was reported to the ATA and my entry fee was refunded (thank you Ken). I fixed the gun myself. A month later at the VA State shoot the same thing happened (shouldn't have fixed it myself). At that shoot my gun broke around the 10th shot of the first sub-event and the VA delegate at that time (me) ruled that my score of 10/25 would be reported to the ATA.

    I would still like to see a consistent method of handling this situation, but I do not get everything I would like to get. I do understand that a "broken gun", or a gun "not functioning as intended" can actually be very difficult to accurately define. Does a missing mid bead constitute a broken gun?

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Pat,
    Not a great advertisement for your gun.

    Ed Yanchok
     
  4. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Pat: Another question on withdrawal from an event. Last year I was shooting an ATA 200 bird 16 yard event. After shooting the 1st 100, we had to wait until all shooters had completed shooting their initial 100 targets. I really wasn't feeling too well that day and probably should have stayed home. However, I asked the people running the event if I could "scratch" the 2nd hundred. They said that they couldn't do that and I would have to not only forfeit the fees for the 2nd hundred, but most likely would be issued a score of 0/100 for the 2nd hundred targets. Is this correct? I stayed and shot, but felt that you could scratch after shooting the 1st 100 targets without penalty. Thanks. Ed
     
  5. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Pat, I would interpert our situation as being that he w/d on his own accord. Gun probably could have been fixed or he could have borrowed a gun. But he did not inform shoot management of his decision to W/D, he juse left. The rule book says "beyond his/her control" and goes on to give an example of weather permanantly cancelling an event. I would consider the second part of the rule kind like an "act of God" rule. Now, did his gun break down because of a AOG? :)

    Ed: Your score is recorded based on each sub event. So, if you pull out after shooting the first 100, your score will only be based on that 100. Now, if I were running the shoot, I would refund 1/2 of your target fee, but not and entires into options. So bigger shoots will not allow for refunds based on an involuntary W/D, it just depends.

    VII. C. 4.

    When a contestant voluntarily withdraws from, or is otherwise disqualified, and takes no further part in a sub-event after having fired at 1 or more targets of a sub-event and does not fire at all the targets in the sub-event, the referee/scorer shall rule all targets not fired upon “LOST” targets and they shall be scored and reported accordingly. When the shooter is prevented by reasons beyond his/her control from completing a sub-event, the scores for that partial sub-event shall not be recorded or reported. Example: shooters have shot 61 targets of a 100-target event when a storm permanently stops shooting. The management should report the scores for the first 50 targets only
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    John -

    Can I add to this?

    Let's say it's a handicap event. Shooter runs the first 50, then withdraws. Punch?

    Shooter runs the first 75 then withdraws. Punch?

    I know the rulebook says you punch if an event is shortened, but I gather they are talking about the entire event, not one person's score.

    What's the correct rule here?

    Scott

    (Planning to be at the Indiana State Shoot Thur thru Sun)
     
  7. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    50 straight in a big 50 is a punch, so 50 or 75 straight in a 100 bird program, then a WD, might be ½ yard????? In reply to the above, I have always heard ...... that if targets shot is less than 13 in a 25 sub event and you WD, no score is turned in. If it is 13 or more, turn it in as a broke x 25. For a 50, same guide lines. Any targets shot before 38 is based on the score of the first 25 and any shot 38 or more are by 50.
     
  8. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    3200 -

    Regarding "what you've heard", that's not consistent with the rule. Anything not fired at is lost.

    Scott

    VII. C. 4.

    When a contestant voluntarily withdraws from, or is otherwise disqualified, and takes no further part in a sub-event after having fired at 1 or more targets of a sub-event and does not fire at all the targets in the sub-event, the referee/scorer shall rule all targets not fired upon “LOST” targets and they shall be scored and reported accordingly. When the shooter is prevented by reasons beyond his/her control from completing a sub-event, the scores for that partial sub-event shall not be recorded or reported. Example: shooters have shot 61 targets of a 100-target event when a storm permanently stops shooting. The management should report the scores for the first 50 targets only
     
  9. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Scott,

    I would say there would be no punch, since the program is a stated 100 targets. The only time you would give out a punch for 50 for 75 is if the program is stated to be 50 or 75 targets of length.

    How about options? Say he played the 50s, ran his first and voluntarliy W/D. Do you still include him in the options? If so, and he qualifies for a money punch, then he gets a punch because the punch is awarded not on the number of targets hit. In my mind, since you would not refund the options on a voluntary W/D and he completed enough, you throw in his score for options.

    See ya in a couple of weeks!

    John
     
  10. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Jim -

    The 6th target shot from post three is scored as shot. He would shoot four on the next post.

    When you say "line referee", who are you referring to? The scorer or someone who is in charge of the scorers? In either case, I've haven't been anywhere yet that the scorer or the people in charge of the scorers have enough knowledge of the rules to be considered a "referee".

    Scott
     
  11. foghorn220

    foghorn220 Active Member

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    Jim I know you wasn't shooting with me in Ohio but I was a lead off and also shot 6 from either post 2 or 3 but when I went to the next post I just shot another one instead, I broke them both times but I could see if I had missed the 6th bird on the post and then shoot all 5 on the next post and break them all that it could be something to complain about.

    I have been told also in the past to shoot the 4 on the next post so I wonder also what the correct rule is to it.

    Foghorn
     
  12. Jim Brown (the puller)

    Jim Brown (the puller) TS Member

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    Jim, you should have brought it out. EVERY legal target shot at in a sub-event MUST be scored. The only exception is a 26th target shot at.
     
  13. pa pete

    pa pete Member

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    Maybe this one will turn up in the "House Rules" col. in T&F. "Pete" McDonough.
     
  14. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    I doubt that it will be in the house rules because there is very little interpertation of the rule.

    It is stated above, but to find it a little easier...

    VII. A. 6.

    6. It is the duty of the referee/scorer to see that the shooters change
    posts at the proper time; however, any targets shot after failure to move
    at the proper time shall be scored.
     
  15. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    Jim, Scott:

    I also am not trying to change the content of John's original question, but when attending the '07 Pennsylvania State Shoot, a majority of the scorers called "ready" when the lead-off man had shot their 5th target.

    We used to do this years ago but had changed when trap help changed, or shooters requested "No readies".

    Another sort-of relate4d question comes to mind.

    How would you score the target if a shooter shoots out of turn and misses, then is allowed to shoot his scheduled target and breaks it? What if the outcome of the scorers/judges decision made a difference in the winner of that shoot?

    This may be in the rule book, but I am just curious.

    Danny
     
  16. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    VII, E, 4: "....All contestants must shoot in regular order or sequence according to his or her position in the squad. A contestant who does not shoot in regular order is “out of turn” and the results are not scored."
     
  17. Wentez

    Wentez Member

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    At Ohio last week the shooter on post 4 had a sizeable piece appear with the target - I do not know if it was a broken piece from the target carousel or from the target. The shooter shot and broke the 'target'. Scorer called no target rather quietly. Shooter on 5 called for and broke his bird.

    Post 4 shooter re-shot her target and broke it. Shooter on 5 - after some reluctance - re-shot his target and missed.

    He acted pissed at me because I had stated the rule since the squad did not seem to know that a target shot out of turn does not count and a target shot from the wrong post does count.

    George Wentz
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Danny, it would be be no problem. The bird is dead, since the miss didn't count, being shot out of turn. I don't know of any rule which is officially only used "when it really counts."

    Neil
     
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