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Rule Question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by phirel, Feb 16, 2009.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    On a few occasions, after setting the targets, I have forgotten to turn on the oscillating switch. The first squad then shot 10 or so targets before either I or the shooters noticed my error. All of the targets they shot were straight away targets from post three. Should these targets be scored or should the shooters shoot them over?

    Pat Ireland

    PS- Many others have made this same mistake. I made it once during a shoot off for the state championship.
     
  2. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    They are scored. J.W
     
  3. Trap4

    Trap4 Member

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    They are scored but in all fairness to the other shooters who have played the options-they should be shot over.

    Trap-4
     
  4. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Trap-4

    I'm sure your comment about the fairness has to do with the fact that nobody ever misses a straight away . . . LOL.

    At Michigan two years ago, GLG I think it was, I was shooting second squad out in handicap on the last day, and my buddy was shooting in the first squad out on the same bank. The second or third trap was still set on straight-aways and my friend's squad shot the entire trap that way - and nobody shot a perfect score on that trap. It didn't get noticed until our squad walked up and noticed no angles.

    Scott
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you don't bother to reshoot the targets, then why bother to have an oscillator. HMB
     
  6. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Do you want to do what is FAIR, or what is according to the rules?

    Gne J
     
  7. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Unless the squad was really new shooters, how come no one "noticed"?
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    hmb

    "If you don't bother to reshoot the targets, then why bother to have an oscillator. HMB"

    It should be obvious even to you. There is a reason to an oscillator because the rulebook say so or should we rewrite it for everything you don't agree with.

    "A. TRAP MACHINE
    A trap machine, which throws targets at an unknown angle, shall be used. All trap machines used to throw ATA registered targets shall be so manufactured, modified, or equipped as to interrupt irregularly the oscillation of the trap or otherwise assure the unpredictability of the flight of substantially all targets thrown."

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    They are not legal. Shoot over.
     
  10. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Barry, or anyone else -

    Can you cite the rule that says these are not legal targets? Would you allow a shoot-over of missed targets or just the ones that were hit?

    Generally the people shooting the targets aren't aware they are getting all straight-aways, so oscillation or not it's still a random target to them. Now, if a squad is knowingly shooting a trap that isn't oscillating then that's a different story.

    Scott
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The rulebook can't cover anything. This is a case where shoot management should make a decision one way or the other and stick to it no matter what and the ATA will back them up. I saw this done (the targets were allowed) once, and it worked out fine.

    Neil
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Bryce there is nothing in the rules that covers the fact that the management made the mistake. Just how far are you willing to go to punish the shooters involved for someone else's mistake.

    One of the club's trap help usually volunteer made a mistake. So am I to understand that you are willing to hold the shooters involved responsible for the mistake and force them to play "Do Over" with no provision in the rule for "Do Overs".

    Or maybe we should take the volunteer out behind the barn and use a club on them?

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't the interupter rule negate all else? I don't care if you count them, I just think the interupter rule could apply.
     
  14. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    2005 GAM.. singles, first field in the morning, we shot 3 posts before it was noticed... they scored all targets.... the year we shot 10 per post.... early in the morning you don't notice things like that...
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Bryce

    With all due respect it really does depend. I am the type of shooter that I very seldom take my eyes off the targets that are launched after I have removed the empty and inserted another loaded shell in my gun.(usually one sometimes two targets after I have shot)

    There are many others that very seldom look much before the shooter before them is calling. If all the shooter on the squad were paying very little attention I wouldn't even venture a guess how many targets it would take to notice that the trap isn't oscillating.

    Usually other shooters notice also but not always those that are there to look at targets to see what they look from this trap usually notice.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    They should be scored.

    As to the fairness/unknown angles issue; The targets angles ARE unknown to the shooters until someone notices that the machine isn't oscillating. I've seen this happen a few times as have I assume, most of us, it's usually caught on about the second post. The only way it would be unfair would be if the shooters noticed the machine was throwing all straightaways and just kept on shooting anyway.

    John C. Saubak
     
  17. trappermike

    trappermike Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday at the club shooting for fun, I commented after about 20 seemingly straight aways that I thought that the trap was not oscillating. All agreed but instead of interrupting, we decided to keep shooting. Surprise, the targets started to change angles. We checked and the trap was operating properly. I don't know if it warmed up and started moving or if it was a fluke that we got so many of the same targets. Just an observation.

    Mike
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The rules say the machine is supposed to oscillate. If the targets are shot at while the rule is being broken, the targets do not count. The fundemental concept here is that in competition the same set of rules apply to all competitors. This is clearly managements fault, the situation needs to be corrected. The oscillator needs to be turned on and the targets need to be reshot. HMB
     
  19. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    Good one Pat. Creel is almost full.
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes once again for all to see the only way that this will be satisfied is if we follow the rule according to HMB not according to established practices or common sense.

    Something I might add that HMB seems to exhibit very little of on many issues

    Bob Lawless
     
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