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Rule Interpretation ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by phirel, Dec 12, 2010.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The new rule "No contestant will be allowed to declare or change a special declaration (declare category) after firing his/her first shot. The only exception to this rule will be correct an ATA classification error." is a good rule change. But I suspect it will be misinterpreted by many. If a Vet shooter fails to identify himself as a Vet at classification, that is not an ATA classification error, it is a shooter error.

    The rule, as written, does allow for a correction if the shooter tells the classifier he is a Vet and the classifier fails to enter that in his classification, that can be corrected. The classifier is acting as an ATA representative. If a shooter does not tell the classifier he is a Vet, than the omission cannot be corrected. That is how I interpret the current rule. I will confirm my interpretation prior to classifying at another shoot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If a mistake is made, it should be corrected when it is discovered. HMB
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pat, as a strictly legal point, the classifier is _not_ acting as an ATA representative. Even at the Grand, I'm pretty sure that Dr. Seitz would maintain that, and out in the field there is no connection between them and the ATA at all. I think you have the rest about right, though but haven't thought of _all_ the things that can go wrong.

    What is the ruling, for example, when I hand my card to the club classifier and it says who I am and, exactly as plainly and even in the same Helvetica, that I am a senior vet and she doesn't notice it? I've certainly documented my category status to her as clearly as I have my name so if she misses it is it a classification error?

    What's going to happen, Pat, is that people will use their heads. If I go back to classification after the first event and say "I noticed on the scoresheet you failed to put me in senior vet." the club is just going to change it and we will go on as usual. If, instead, I wait until the third day to bring it up, the club will think I'm trying to pull a fast one and enforce the rule.

    I always was uncomfortable writing rules no one was going to follow, but there you are.

    Neil
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- How about this situation? A vet, who classifies and fails to make sure he is classified as a Vet, looks at the scoreboard and discovers he is tied for a class trophy and has the high Vet score. He made the mistake. Can he now go bake and correct it to win a trophy?

    With the category rule now in place, wouldn't it be advantageous for a shooter to not éclair a category at first and then see how things sort out with the wins and ties and then request a classification change that would give him a trophy?

    To me, the critical point is who made the classification mistake.

    Also, many classifiers are representatives of the ATA because of their elected or appointed position, such as a Delegate.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Is not the correct information in the computer at the time the classification is made? HMB
     
  6. over the hill

    over the hill Active Member

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    I've always thought it is Shooters Responsibility.

    Once you walk away from the window whatever it is, it is.




    Regards....Gerald
     
  7. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Pat must be hungry, considering all the baking of éclairs occuring in his mind. ;-)
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Pat, that's why the rule is written that way. But I think most clubs can, and will, use common sense. That's why I think it will work out as I predict.

    Delegates are _not_, I repeat _not_ representatives of the ATA. They are members of the BOD, but that does not make them representatives. For example, when they make a statement to the press, they may call themselves shooters, or Board members, or whatever, but they cannot "speak for" the ATA.

    Neil
     
  9. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Neil. The Vet-Sr Vet is clearly marked on the card with your name, etc. Your cashiers receipt MAY OR MAY NOT BE clearly marked. Whose fault?? Not mine, I would think. Bob
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Devi, I've seen shooters bring whole boxes of éclairs to the classification table at the Dollar hoping for more favorable treatment from Pat but I've never seen it work.

    Neil
     
  11. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'll take them when Martin is not around to see it. That's when I'm not helping with classification, of course.
     
  12. CharlieAMA

    CharlieAMA TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    In a shoot that lasts 2-3 days, some people sign-up new each day, and declare one thing one day, and don't declare anything the next day. Ithought once you declare for the first day, you are that category for remainder of the shoot. But could be wrong about that. Charlie Henderson
     
  13. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Charlie,

    Folks might sign-up one day at a time, but they don't reclassify each day. Their classification from their first day would still apply.
     
  14. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    HMB wrote "Is not the correct information in the computer at the time the classification is made?"

    When a club uses the George Cook 3S software I believe they can use the club's copy of the database from the last shoot or refresh the database from the latest version that is online. I definitely want the option to Declare or Not Declare Senior Vet depending on whatever shoot management thinks they are going to do for the current shoot. I don't care what is recorded on the club's computer for Category.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Categories are not always correct in the computer. Some cards are not marked with the category.

    Neil- We just have a different view of what my term "represent the ATA" at a shoot means. If no one actually represents the ATA at a shoot then it is not possible for the ATA to make a mistake in classification so the words changed in the rule this year are not necessary.

    Éclairs at the classification table? Something that some might try. It would get a smile from me but would not change my decision to put a shooter with a 96.20 average and several 100 straights in class AA (96.25 is AA in a six class shoot). I have had a few guns and billfolds left at the classification table.

    recurvyarcher- If you really want to test me, bring a pizza. I love pizza with licorice and marshmallows as toppings.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say in that rule that the ATA has to make that error, Pat? It just says "error" doesn't it? Not ATA error, I think.

    Neil
     
  17. missed some

    missed some TS Member

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    It should be up to the shooters, and their "fault" if not done right. Case being that just because you are a vet, you may not want to classify as such, but if it automatic, i see a problem their also. How about just throwing all catagories out and giving trophies to the top 20 scores or whatever, the catagory shooters are the ones who feel they are getting shafted by having to declare, just make them like most of us are, NO CHOICE just top scores win........... mark crist
     
  18. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Pat, thats a tricky pizza with those toppings but possible. Thick or thin crust? Yes you'll have one someday.
     
  19. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote><I>"It should be up to the shooters, and their "fault" if not done right.</I></blockquote>"Heresy!! It's become un-American to hold anyone responsible for the consequences of their actions!

    MK
     
  20. missed some

    missed some TS Member

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