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Rio primers? hot or not?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by yobyllib, Sep 19, 2009.

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  1. yobyllib

    yobyllib TS Member

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    I got 3k of these,and will be dipping into them shortly.
    Whats the consensus on these?
    more like winnies or feddies or remmies??
    thanks

    bill
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    My experience, load them like fed 209a's.
     
  3. Top Single 35#

    Top Single 35# TS Member

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    their like winchester,but 1000th over sized in diameter. I got 40,000 of them from Dean Bright.
     
  4. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    the published data does not support loading them like winchesters or sts primers...
     
  5. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    For most loads, they are similar to, if not hotter than the Fed 209A. They work in cold weather, and are priced right.

    I have a few left, and have 50K on back order. Never one problem.
     
  6. Hatshooter

    Hatshooter TS Member

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    I like them on slow burning powders -- Unique, Universal, Longshot
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Mash the link above. It's a pdf file of some loads listed by Rio. For all intents and purposes, most data I have seen show these primers to have a tendency to produce HIGHER than average pressures in a given load. They were designed to work in a large capacity hull like the "Cheddite" style used by UEE (RIO). They seem to be similar to the Federal 209A, but NOT the "SAME AS".
     
  8. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I personally feel they are equal to WINCHESTER PRIMERS, and I load them as such.

    The large flash hole ignites slow powder well.



    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  9. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Dr.longshot

    You can personally feel whatever you like, but take a look at the limited data on the Rio primers and you will see that they are NOT the same as Winchester Primers. Do the comparison. I provided a link to the Rio data. You can look at the powder manufacturers data of your choice. The pressures with Clays seems a good bit higher than those developed with Winchester primers. Loads with other powders seem to be afflicted with the same discrepancies. In the Federal Hulls, the pressures appear a little more reasonable, but those are the style of hulls that they were designed for. Do you have any data to support your statement?
     
  10. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    Almost all the hulls I load are Eurotrash, cheap Fed or Remmy. The Rio works very well for me, and is my primer of choice. I use Fed 209A data for these hulls, and do not push the envelope.

    I only load Solo 1000 and Solo 1250. If I were loading Winnie hulls with Clays, or such, I would be very conservative and would strictly go by the Rio load data.
     
  11. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Shooting Coach

    I'm not knocking the Rio primer. My concerns are the lack of reliable data and the lack of concern some reloaders have about swapping components. I also don't like unverified or unreliable statements about "Primer Equivalents". Some novice that reads such a statement could get into serious trouble, if they believed it. I'm very conservative in my reloading practices and would rather get the "right" components for the "recipe". Substitutions are something that should be done with some caution and common sense.

    I used Clays as an example, since my observations tend to make me think it "hits the wall" pretty abruptly and somewhat sooner than some other powders I have used. The "Solo" Data I have seen covers "std 209 primers". They list three in parenteses, if I remember correctly. They were the Winchester, Remington, and Cheddite. When selecting a load, I think I'd stay away from the 10,000 PSI PLUS and 11,000 PSI PLUS loads they list there, since I don't have that much faith in putting all of the primers in the same bucket, so to speak. I'd be extra careful with data that was compiled that way. That said, some powders may be more sensitive to primer changes than others and some may be more so, under certain conditions. I don't believe that Solo 1000 and 1250 are exempt from issues with higher pressures due to some primer substitutions. Their latest data offering is located here: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20Guide%20v3.3%20version.pdf If the observation is that the other powder companies and data sources can show a wide difference in pressures, depending on what primer is used, what makes anyone believe that the Accurate Powder Data is accurate with "ALL" primers and won't change with a primer substitution. Somehow, I missed any reference to Federal or Rio Primers in the listed data. I looked at a few older manuals that I had and didn't see any either. I may not have the latest printed manual, but did download the current electronic version off of their site. There was a chart in a few older manuals that listed a few different primers, with some comments about intensity. There was no data for them.
     
  12. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Regarding Rio primers being equal to Winchester primers, this is posted on <I>ShotgunWorld</I> currently:

    http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=191748... look at the last posting.

    Also, Alliant has published 3, 12 ga., 1200 fps loads for Rio primers in their on-line data guide.

    There are two 1 1/8 oz loads for AA hulls (one using "E3" and one using "Amer. Select"). There is one 1 oz. load for Federal Gold Medal hulls (using "Claydot").

    Carol Lister
     
  13. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    Winnies, feddys, remmys, good grief.
     
  14. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Carol Lister

    I've seen the few loads that were listed by Alliant for the Rio primers. They seemed to mirror what I have seen elsewhere. They don't do too badly in the large capaity hulls like the Federals or Cheddite Style. The pressure increase seems more severe in the Remington and Winchester hulls. Since the Primers were designed for large capacity straight walled hulls and single base powders, I would believe that they would work fine in those conditions. Everything I have seen makes be believe that there is a dramatic increase in pressures with smaller capacity hulls, and even more with certain powders. I have seen only a few instances where the pressures were lower than a comparable load in a large capaity hull. One of those was the 1 oz load listed by Alliant for the Federal Gold Medal hull.

    The thread on ShotgunWorld was interesting. There is only one thing I don't agree with in that last post on Shotgun World. The poster stated that the pressure would increase by a few hundred PSI if the crimps were normal depth, rather than the shallow ones in the shells tested. I believe it could have been more than a few hundred PSI. The link above is an article by Tom Armbrust that had a comparison of crimp depths vs Pressure and Velocity. The chart is about halfway down the page. This is essentially the data contained in the chart:

    The resulting ballistic data was as follows:

    Crimp Depth Velocity (fps) Pressure


    0.030" 1,308 f/s 9,300 PSI


    0.050" 1,329 f/s 10,500 PSI


    0.070" 1,351 f/s 11,900 PSI


    0.090" 1,363 f/s 13,100 PSI

    A tremendous 3800 PSI increase for a .060" increase in crimp depth. I have checked my crimp depths for many years and this data supports what I have suspected all along. I just didn't expect the difference to be that large. I've seen some wide variations in velocities when the crimp depths were inconsistent. Deeper went faster and shallow went slower. It took many hundreds of rounds over my chronograph to come to that conclusion. I pay attention to crimps a lot more after reading Tom's article.
     
  15. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Quack Shot...

    You're right about the crimps and the pressures. Armbrust's data shows a 1200 psi difference between .030" deep crimps and .050". The crimps in the test loads looked to be about .010" too shallow on average so that would mean an increase of 600 to 800 psi if the increase was linear. That could be nasty added to the 2000 psi over-pressure already exhibited by these loads.

    It's situations like this that cause me to wonder just how much attention the people shooting next to me have paid to things like charge weight, crimp depth and primer swapping in their own reloads.

    Carol Lister
     
  16. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    I used a sleeve when they were the only primers I could get. I think they are hot.

    In my 28 gauge loads, the primer flattened. That's a sign of high pressure in rifle and pistol loads. With shotgun it's maybe. With shotgun it may just mean weak metal in the primer cup....BUT....it can also mean high pressure. Better safe than sorry seemed the prudent course, so I quit using them in the 28 gauge loads. My 12 and 20 gauge loads are pretty low pressure, so I finished the sleeve off with those. I never tried them in the .410.

    I won't buy anymore.
     
  17. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Carol Lister

    I believe that most data I have seen that specify a crimp depth, seem to average about .060" as a normal depth. I keep mine about .050" to .060" for the average. Some data, like that offered by Accurate Powder, use a deeper crimp. I believe theirs specified an .080" crimp depth. If that is the case, and many reloaders use a shallower crimp, that would mean a little more headroom for error when using published data. However, in the test data that was posted on Shotgun World's Forum, the crimp depths reported were .038", .035", .033", and .046". If you use a crimp depth of .050" to .060", then we would be talking an increase of .004" to .027" in crimp depth. The .004" does not worry me as much as the other end of the spectrum. All that said, it does not appear to be evident in the example, that the crimp depth variations had any direct influence on the pressures listed, if you assume that the crimp depths listed correspond to the same order as the pressures were presented. As a matter of reference, the thickness of a dime is about .055". Unfortunately, the diameter does not allow it to lay flat inside a 12 ga crimp as a gauge.

    I think that the load that was selected by the person that posted the data was almost up against the wall with pressures to begin with. Looking at Alliant's data, it lists pressures of 9,020 PSI to 10,850 with the same components and powder charge, using other primers. It IS significant to note that the pressure listed by Alliant for the "Hottest" primer (CCI 209M) that THEY tested was 1405 PSI less, on the average than for the Rio primer, even with slightly shallow crimps. It's a VERY significant increase in pressure and resulted in a load that was well over the established limits for pressure. I'd hate to think that a shooter might fire ten THOUSAND of these through a gun over the course of a year or two. Some shooters could double or triple that amount.

    It's not my intention to bad mouth the Rio primers. I still have quite a few on hand and use them quite a bit. In doing so, I'm very aware of the potential increases in pressure and select my loads accordingly. They have performed very well for me when used in proper loads. I prefer NOT use them in tapered hulls like the Winchester AA or the Remingtons. Reloaders just need to be aware of the potential for grossly over pressured loads if they are used carelessly.

    If someone does not understand the background on what all of this means, they should NOT be swapping around with components or possibly NOT reloading AT ALL.
     
  18. #1ROCK

    #1ROCK TS Member

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    Yobyllib You asked did you get a answer thick as mud?
    I asked about the same thing some while back only it was noble sport primers.

    The Rock
     
  19. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Rock asked...

    <blockquote>"Yobyllib You asked did you get a answer thick as mud? I asked about the same thing some while back only it was noble sport primers."</blockquote>

    I think the answer should be very clear: Rios aren't like anyone elses' primers. There's a lot more to it than simply picking some data you think will work, stuffing Rio's primers into the end of a hull and making a load. They were designed to be used as part of a specific component combination. Change that and bad things can happen. I completely agree with Quack Shot's observation:

    <blockquote>"If someone does not understand the background on what all of this means, they should NOT be swapping around with components or possibly NOT reloading AT ALL."</blockquote>

    If you're going to use them, stay with what published data there is or have the loads you build tested before you put them in a gun. Guessing can hurt people.

    Carol Lister
     
  20. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    Dear Quack Shot

    I agree about these primers. I prefer to use a single based powder in a straight walled hull.

    With Federal 209A primers and Solo 1000 powder in a straight walled Cheddite hull, one of my favored loads (24 gram 1350 fps Bunker) generates 7100 psi. The other (one ounce at 1250 fps) generates 8100 psi.

    My 1 1/8 oz 1250 fps Caps load with Solo 1250 generates 7500 psi with Fed primers in the paper hull I prefer.

    Crimps are .050" deep.

    AA and Remmy hulls have load data from Rio. They do produce high pressures in them.

    I would submit that if one must load fast powders behind 1 1/8 ounce in tapered hulls, Rio primers are best avoided.

    I will occasionally load AA and STS hulls with 7/8 or 1 ounce. I only load 1 1/8 oz in a HCP load.
     
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