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Rights vs. Responsibilities

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by bigclown, Oct 9, 2008.

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  1. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Candidate Obama declares that access to health care is a RIGHT to all Americans. So why are we arguing about the cost or delivery? Note: see other thread re: health care. Since it is a RIGHT, many Americans want FREE health care...except IT AIN'T FREE as we all know. Someone has to pay for the doctors, nurses, hospitals, medications, etc...WHO? anyone who has a job and can be taxed. Didn't an old activist - Karl Marx - define the collective good as being a RIGHT..."from each according to his ability to pay (my edit) and to each according to his need"? Well, doggone it, I need someone to pay my mortgage, too, while we're at it. Remember, individuals have RIGHTS - only the government has RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the RIGHTS of the populous are met. Is this where we are heading? Have a nice day & Best Regards, Ed
     
  2. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    What I found interesting is that Obama hit McCain on the $5000 tax-credit. Leaving the issue of taxing benefits aside for moment (which I as a self-employed individual need to assess) a $5000 tax credit is a nice benefit to offset my costs of family health insurance, but do we need to fund 100% to effectively give Americans free health insurance?!

    Everyone gets all the healthcare they want in America. Sometimes one has to be the squeaky wheel to get the grease, but we do have, without a doubt the best delivery system in the world - our methodology of paying for it needs repair, but to damage the delivery system by concocting a poor payment system is biting off the nose to spite the face.

    Jay
     
  3. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    Look at what the illegals do for health care. They just use the emergency room or state funded clinics and pay nothing. We are paying for them now. Get rid of them and there will be money for legal citizens health care.
     
  4. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Jay & oletymer have excellent valid points. Recently, I was involved in a conversation with a couple of Canada residents who are seriously concerned about their health care system and very critical of it. Several of their friends come to the U.S. for care. Yes, fixing the U.S. system should be the objective - not socialized medicine, but I am fearful that is the way Obama is headed. Best Regards, Ed
     
  5. perazzitms

    perazzitms TS Member

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    It's always INSURANCE. Give everybody affordable INSURANCE.
    The only thing insurance does is line the pockets of the Doctors and lawyers. It's like free govt. money.

    Here's a novel idea. How about affordable CARE. My wife cut her finger pretty deep one day when I was out of town. She called me and I told her to go to one of those immediate care places. The nurse looked at it, said it was OK, put some of that super glue in it and put one of those aluminum finger splints on it to keep it from separating the glue. Got the bill. $300. Absurd. Charged her $39 for the finger splint. Since my wife works at a Doctors office, she looked up what that finger splint costs. $1.29. How the hell do you justify charging $39 for something that costs $1.29. Oh yea, who cares - insurance will pay for it - but who pays for the insruance...............
     
  6. School Teacher

    School Teacher Well-Known Member

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    A key question in this discussion is "How do you ration health care?"

    Will there be a maximum amount that an individual can receive or will any person be entitled to maximum care (and expense) up to the time of death?

    If free health care is a right, how can anybody be denied any treatment no matter what the cost or how low the probability of success?

    If health care is nationalized and health care workers are employees or contractors of the Federal Government, who are you going to sue if you believe that the health care provided was deficient?

    How much will all this cost?

    Ed Ward
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    When you socialize Health Care the only ones who will get it are the ones who can afford to pay for it now and will be able to then ... MONEY talks, and everything else walks ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    If I or any of my family members were "wiped out" we would have a place to go, because we've all treated each other well, and will continue to support each other emotionally and financially when necessary. The "me" society here in the U.S. doesn't understand that concept, but you can see it used in Pennsylvania amongst the Amish, and in other countries.
     
  9. leadhead358

    leadhead358 Member

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    Here is another example of why insurance is so high. THE BILLING! My wife and I were lucky to both have insurance when my son was born. Her insurance picked up the 80% of the initial bill. My insurance was to pick up 80% of the 20% that was left. I didn't have a problem with that or paying my co-payment UNTIL the hospital billed both the insurances the initial cost making them another $6500 which they should not get. Then they wanted me to pay my co-payment on top of that. I went round and round with them and told them I was not paying the co-payment because, they were paid twice for one job. What a joke. They are making another $6500 and want me to pay an extra few hundred bucks. Finally when the said they were going to send me to claims, I told them go ahead and I would turn them in for fraud. I never heard a thing from them again. I guess it was easier to take the extra $6500 then to take me to court and loose. My wife being a nurse said all hospitals do this to cover costs of people who do not pay and if the common person doesn't catch it, thats more money they make. CHECK YOUR BILLING. Tom
     
  10. Dahaub

    Dahaub Active Member

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    Leadhead the insurance I have used to give us a 10%finders fee if we could prove the hospitals overcharged or double charged. But some of the posters here are talking about not being able to get to see a Dr when socialized medicine starts and I'm saying what's the difference with that and right now? You still have to wait for hours after your appointed time. Wait for weeks to see a specialists and then only after a referral. Lets hope that after this election we can benefit from changes made by those who are supposed to be making the laws in this country and taking care of us. Dan
     
  11. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Ok boys and girls, let's think about this for a moment. A right to something means someone else has a responsibility to provide it. So since hussein thinks it is a right that means the someone has the responsibility to provide for it. That, then is you and me. We are now responsible to provide socialized medicine for others. Look at how this goes...

    A man does some dangerous activity, i.e. smoking and this ultimatly causes heart problems, emphysema, high bp etc. Now as your "provider" of medical care, I don't think you should participate in hazardous activities.

    Another is overweight, eats greasy food, sweets, doesn't exercise, has high cholesterol and now needs a heart transplant. If you don't quit your bad habits, why should I have to provide these things if you won't quit what you are doing. Also shooting trap is bad for you.

    A "gay" man engaging in what gay men do, is increasing the chances of a fatal illness. Why should I have a responsibility to take care of this person if their activities???

    Some real questions to ask BEFORE you take on the responsibility of another's rights. You have to cinsider what YOU think is ok behavior, another provider of responsibility may not.
     
  12. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, with socialized medicine, we will eventually be told what we can and cannot do/eat. After all, it's for the good of the country, isn't it?
     
  13. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Perazzitms,

    You wrote, "Here's a novel idea. How about affordable CARE. My wife cut her finger pretty deep one day when I was out of town. She called me and I told her to go to one of those immediate care places. The nurse looked at it, said it was OK, put some of that super glue in it and put one of those aluminum finger splints on it to keep it from separating the glue. Got the bill. $300. Absurd. Charged her $39 for the finger splint. Since my wife works at a Doctors office, she looked up what that finger splint costs. $1.29. How the hell do you justify charging $39 for something that costs $1.29. Oh yea, who cares - insurance will pay for it - but who pays for the insruance............... "

    Let me give you justification for the costs.

    Your wife went to the clinic. I would have to assume there is a building, receptionist, lights, water etc. Some how that has to be paid for. Was there a breakdown for these costs on your bill?

    The nurse's experience and education needs to be compensated somehow. Did you see the breakdown for her fee? What about the benefits and licenses she has, breakdown for that? What about the malpractice insurance and liability insurance?

    The owner of this building needs to pay property taxes and insurance for the building. Did you also get a breakdown for this? What about for the disinfectant to have her room free of germs?

    There was an illegal who came in before her (this usually applies to hospitals) and has no insurance or viable way to pay for the services that they got. Government says I can't turn them away, so since you can pay, either through insurance or self pay. The business still has the same costs to pay.

    Now this an over simplification of how hospital and doctor bills work, but I think you can see what I am trying to say. Many years ago, we had no clinics/hospitals and we would have to take care of most of the non-life threatning situations. I imagine that the next time she could now fix it herself.

    It is funny how many uses super glue has. There are many instances that they have been using this instead of stitches
     
  14. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    2str8, Thats BS. The only banks that have folded are investment banks. If you put all your cash in one of those , you got what you deserved, cause you were greedy.
     
  15. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    recury, you hit the nail on the head. Governments have already outlawed frying food in oil with transfat, then it will be cheeseburgers, then red meat, dairy products next, potato chips, "M&Ms", etc.. We'll all being eating tofu, but not at the Grand. Why because shotguns are noisy. Noise leads to hearing loss, and hypertension, hypertension leads to heart disease. Shooting will be outlawed for health reasons. Instead of shooting we will be required to "attend" a Richard Simmons clinic.

    God I knew I was going to hate the 21st century.
     
  16. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    2str8, in my world, there IS no excuse for why you cannot take care of a loved one. Family or not, it is the community that used to take care of people (again, refer to the Amish). If you were involved with and CARED about your community members (family, friends, neighbors), then most likely those people would care about you and help you when it was needed.

    I dated someone who was shocked that I would ever want my mom to move in with me, and said that he didn't know if he could live with that. My mom is the nicest, most inobtrusive mother that anyone would want to have (ask Pheasantmaster). He also would get angry that I had so many friends and family members that called me on the phone. His selfish and possessive nature was one of the reasons that I didn't make much of an effort to keep that previous relationship alive.

    His attitude is the kind of mentality that I see more often than I would like in today's society. Worry about "me" and let everyone else go to hell. That's why I think that the democrats don't see the big picture. They are not worrying about the long-term effects of socialized medicine, bank loans to people who are not credit-worthy, etc. Instead, most democrats vote their party ticket because they (or their family members) expect to receive relief or otherwise personally benefit.
     
  17. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    Ditto recurvyarcher. Bravo. I think your type of thinking is more rural minded. In our area, everyone does what they can for mom or dad till medical help is required. Then, one of the church based nursing homes is involved till their better or advanced care is needed. I don't see those family concerns as much in the larger cities. We have become a "Me" society.
     
  18. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    If you want to find out what American socialized health care is going to be like, just ask a veteran about the VA.
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    My parents took care of me for many years when I was young. I helped take care of my parents for a few years when they were older.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    All one need do is ask a simple question:

    What is the difference between a "responsible" person and a person with a "right"?

    If you don't know the difference, then it's evident who you will be voting next month.

    Curt
     
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