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Remington Nitro Pressure Data

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by oleolliedawg, Jul 11, 2011.

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  1. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Since it's a real hot and I've chosen to do as little as possible today, I figured it's a great time to attempt duplicating Remington STS Nitro Handicap shells in my reloads. I figured the best place to start might be opening a new Nitro and do a little dissecting. Most of us already know Remington uses Hodgdon Tightgroup in their factory ammo and the powder in my sample sure looked identical. Now's the good part. My factory sample contained 18.8 grs. of Tightgroup, 500.1 Grs. shot (a little over 1 1/8oz.), TGT wad and Remington primer.

    Hodgdon's reloading manual says 18.5 grs. of Tightgroup is max. with 1 1/8 oz shot at a pressure of 11,500 psi's. I think most of who shoot Nitro's feel the recoil is quite tolerable. At the same time many of us believe in keeping our reloads in a pressure range below 10,000 psi's.

    So, are we led to believe shooting factory ammo is detrimental to our gun's longevity and our reloads at a lower pressure are much better? Looks to me like our fear of high pressures is not shared by Remington!!
     
  2. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"Most of us already know Remington uses Hodgdon Tightgroup in their factory ammo..."</blockquote>Don't know where your information comes from but a source who's business it is to know such things verifies that neither the powder nor the primers Remington uses are available to the consumer public.

    The powder is developed per the following specs:<blockquote>"How much capacity do you want it to fill and how much weight do you want to push how fast?"</blockquote>The powder that's produced will develop pressures within safe limits and the velocity will be within ± 100 fps of what's printed on the box.

    MK
     
  3. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    So you're saying 11,500 psi is perfectly fine and you know exactly what pressure Remington Nitro's perform at.

    You can also verify Remington is NOT using Tightgroup in their Nitro's.

    Good luck on that one!!
     
  4. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    I made no comments about the suitability of 11,500 psi pressures.

    You said I claimed to know the N 27 pressures... not me.

    You can believe whatever it pleases you to believe.

    I trust my source.

    MK
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Not too many home reloaders have the facilities to test their product for pressure and velocity over a range of conditions. If you load your own and do NOT have such equipment, it is usually a good idea to load on the conservative side. That way, your pet loads might not be over the top. If you have facilities to test your product during the loading process, have at it. Way too many reloaders are trusting enough to believe their loads will develop exactly what the data says in the tables. I'm not one of those people. I load with enough headroom for error, just in case. I have no control over the variability of components, just the quantities and consistency of the loading process. When I'm contemplating firing a quarter million or more reloads through my pet trap gun, I'd like to know that they would produce pressures under maximum. No reason to push to the redline or beyond.

    I seriously doubt that the powder in the factory Nitro is EXACTLY the same powder you can buy as a canister grade intended for reloaders. The powder in the factory shells will quite likely vary from lot to lot and might be similar to titegroup, but likely NOT interchangeable using the same weights and volumes. Check with Hodgdon if you don't believe that.
     
  6. Mark425

    Mark425 TS Member

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    Straight from Alliant Powder posted on "the other" site.

    Quote:

    Mark,
    Remington buys the powder they load in the STS 1oz from us, and it is not available to consumers. It is a very fast burning powder which is proprietary to them, and there isn't anything like it currently on the market. Red Dot(R) burnspeed powders such as e3(R), Clays, Clay Dot(R), ect can certainly make good 1oz loads in that 1180-1200ft/sec range, but you may want to keep your eye out for a new fast burning powder I have developed, and we are just introducing to the market. The name of the powder is Extra-lite(R), and it is a flake that is lower density and faster burning than our current offerings. It is a little faster burning than Titewad, and is the same base chemistry/technology as Clay Dot. It was designed to enhance the performance of the very light loads that operate at such low pressures by bringing them up. The result is a cleaner burn, even at low temps. We will have this powder into distribution as soon as we receive approval from the DOT, so it should start showing up this winter or early spring.
    As far as the 1oz Nitro27 is concerned, the last I checked Remington was loading another proprietary powder from us that is also not available to handloaders. It is, however, a kissing cousin to e3, so that will work well.
    I am told the 1-1/8oz Nitro27 is loaded with the OEM version of Titegroup, so that would probably be St. Marks SMP 242, but that is Remington's business. Personally, I feel you can make a superior handicap load with our Green Dot(R), but I am obviously biased.
    Shoot well,
    Paul

    ----end quote
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    I did check with Hodgdon about the powder Remington uses in their Nitro 27 shells.

    I spoke directly with my friend Chris Hodgdon about 5 years ago, face to face, in his offices in Merriam, KS.

    At one time, Remington did indeed use Hodgdon Titegroup, purchased directly from Hodgdon, for the Remington Nitro 27 handicap shells.

    However, since that time, Remington has chosen to purchase a powder not available to handloaders, that is similar to, but not exactly the same as Titegroup. It is made by the same company, in the same factory that makes Titegroup for Hodgdon (Primex, I think.) This was an economic decision on the part of Remington, not a technical decision.

    As Chris told me, "I wouldn't cut open a factory Nitro 27 shell, weigh the charge, and assume it is exactly the same as Titegroup. That could be a dangerous proposition."

    Hodgdon's tables have loads that nearly exactly reproduce the Nitro 27 factory shells using Titegroup.

    But let it be said, you can probably come up with a similarly performing load using a number of other powders. I'm just partial to Hodgdon products.

    And if you want to do "as close to the same thing" as what Remington is doing, you'll probably want to use Titegroup.

    If you go "by the numbers" in Hodgdon's Titegroup data, loading Remington hulls, using Remington primers, and Remington wads, you can recreate a Nitro 27 1235 fps load with 18.0 grains of Titegroup, which, by interpolation should be in the 11,000 psi pressure range.

    And 11,500 psi is perfectly fine. If it wasn't, none of the powder companies would print data with that is a the published pressure.
     
  8. bigben

    bigben Active Member

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    I was fortunate to be in a test group for the original Nitro 27"s there were different lots of shells loaded with prototype powders, the lots were numbered with no data given, we were to evaluate perceived recoil, target breaks, etc from the 27yd line the winner was then forwarded to Remington along with the other test groups around the country. The winner was Clays international. The factory duplicate is as follows, STS case, Rem primer, 21.7 grains of Clays International, Figure 8 wad, 1 1/8 magnum shot, it yields 1255 feet per second, with a very nice pressure of 9100 lup! This again was the ORIGINAL Nitro 27, since then the powders have changed as powders later came along that required lesser amounts of powder for a lower cost, Patterns shot with the original Clays International are impressive indeed! incinerate em!
     
  9. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    I think bigben is right.

    I believe International Clays was in the early, original Nitro shells.

    That later gave way to Titegroup, which gave way to what Remington uses now, which is close to Titegroup.

    If I recall correctly, Remington, when they made the change from International Clays to Titegroup, advertised them as the "new, lower recoil" Nitro shells.

    Thanks bigben.
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Hmm, higher pressure-lower volume-less recoil. That one flies in the face of a few believed facts!!
     
  11. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    timb99 is correct.

    ood: Recoil has very little or nothing to do with pressure. The prime forces affecting recoil are mass and velocity.

    I have been loading 18 grains or so of TG and absolutely can not tell any difference from factory 1 & 1/8 oz nitro shells.

    I have not used TG for any 1 oz loads so can't speak.

    The PSI/LUP issue has been beaten to death here previously so the short version: 11,500 PSI will not hurt your gun.

    HM
     
  12. Bertmuss

    Bertmuss Member

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    I have preferred the STS Light Handicap load for years and have done the same dissection and weighing with them in an effort to duplicate that load. I found a powder with green dots, as I had heard Rem. used, but there was only about 17 grains of it, which showed me that it was not the same Green Dot that I can purchase. The wizards at Remington have proprietary powders that are not available to home brewers.
     
  13. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"I have preferred the STS Light Handicap load for years and have done the same dissection and weighing with them in an effort to duplicate that load."</blockquote>If you're referring to the STS 3 DE 1 1/8 oz loads as "light handicap", this is some data that Remington distributed a couple years ago as data to clone those shells (as close as possible with OTC components): <center>
    [​IMG]
    </center>

    MK
     
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