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**Remington Nitro 27 exceeds ATA Max FPS**

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Too Bad, Mar 22, 2009.

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  1. Too Bad

    Too Bad TS Member

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    I was out chronographing some of my shells on Saturday. To establish a base line, I shot 10-new Remington Nitro 27 shells, product number STH12NH labeled at 1235 FPS.

    I live in Tucson Arizona and shot at Tucson Trap and Skeet Club. The elevation is 2426 feet above sea level. The temperature was 75 degrees and the wind was less than 5 MPH from the east. Clear and sunny day. Just like Tucson is this time of year.

    I used a F-1 Beta Master Chrony on a tripod, 5 feet from the muzzle. My gun is a Perazzi MX10RS, 35" barrel, full choke, factory backbore.

    The results are as follows in FPS:
    1308.22
    1313.33
    1299.93
    1315.04
    1315.75
    1259.49
    1314.18
    1307.09
    1334.47
    1282.30

    1259.49 low
    1334.47 high
    1304.98 average FPS
    74.98 extreme spread
    20.76 standard deviation

    During the session I ran more than 60 reloads through the Chrony without and problems


    ATA maximum speed for 1 1/8 ounce 7 1/2 or 8's is 1290 FPS. I understand full choke can speed up the velocity 10 to 20 FPS. Remington rates these shells at 1235 FPS, adding 20 FPS, the shells could clock at +/- 1255 FPS. The lowest in the base line test was 1259.49 FPS, well within ATA requirements.

    My questions are:

    1. If ATA max is 1290 FPS, and 8 of 10 Nitro 27's exceed ATA maximum, are Nitro 27's illegal?
    2. Are the Nitro 27 shells I shot illegal based upon ATA requirements, because the average was 1304.98 FPS?
    3. Did I just have a more than average box of shells?
    4. Why do these shells register faster than ATA allowable speed?

    Great shells, smacks them hard, but no smoke. Come on experts solve this one.

    Thanks,

    Richard Luckett
     
  2. tuscarora 99

    tuscarora 99 TS Member

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    You are supposed to do chrony tests with a skeet choke or even cylinder. It takes about 30 to 35 fps off. That would put the shells in ATA limits.
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Consumer chronographs read 35 or so FPS faster than commercial inductive devices.

    ATA regs allow a 5% error range. I don't see any problem.

    HM
     
  4. Tom Strunk

    Tom Strunk Well-Known Member

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    Tuscarora 99 is confirming what I have always heard. That the factorys use a skeet choked barrel to test velocities, as he states it will take off approx 25 feet per second thru a skeet barrel, compared to a full choke.

    Right or wrong this is what I believe I have read before in some of the powder manuals.

    Please educate me if I'm wrong.

    Tom Strunk
     
  5. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Rich, your chrono is off and your are to close to the first screen. Although others say you cannot get good results over a light operated chrono with a full choke, I do not believe it. However, you will be doing yourself a favor by using the most open choked barrel you have.

    BTW, the couple, few times I chronographed Nitro 27s (27s, not the Sporting load) they were more oftern under speed, not over.
     
  6. tatersaled

    tatersaled TS Member

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    I would think the length of the barrel makes a big difference. 26 verses 35.
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    rich left, the link to another thread I have put in the Web Address line above may help clarify some of the problems you are seeing.

    The rule book says.

    "3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second)
    with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces,"

    According to the link I have posted above shows a tolerance of + or - 90 FPS shells at 1235 FPS should fall in the maximum speed if figure in the tolerance.

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Rich, the answer to your question - are these shells illegally fast? - is no. There are no shotshell speed standards measured with a light-operated chronograph.

    For more information on the added speed you got from your full choke over cylinder read pages 2,3, and 4 of the linked (above) article. Fifty fps is a common figure, as are lower numbers. But it makes no difference. You can't use that kind of chronograph to match shells to the rulebook.

    I see no evidence that your machine is "off" or that you are too close to the muzzle. Sometimes closer works better, sometimes more, but five feet is fine as long as you are getting good results. That 1259 looks like an error, but without a second chronograph to compare the reading with, you've no solid reason to discard it. Factory shells can be that fast, or faster, or slower. Were your reloads closer to what you expected?

    Ton, actually the factories use a full choke, not cylinder. Due to some odd influences based on geometry, the effect of more choke in the industry's machines is to lead to a _slower_ reading, not the faster one seen on consumer chronographs. The estimate of 20 or 25 fps looks about right to me.

    And halfmile, there's no speed tolerance.

    Neil
     
  9. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Were they 7-1/2's or 8's?

    Curt
     
  10. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth. If I want to match a factory shell. I'll chrono that shell, and just try and duplicate the speed I get from that factory box...

    I don't really worry about if the factory specs match my chrono speeds, just want my reloads to be the same speed with similar components.

    Jim
     
  11. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Neil I would like to get your take on. "3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces," just a question If the rule says a Velocity greater than 1290 are we to take that as 1290 +90 fps. In the cast that a shell was challenged in ATA competition how would the challenge be settled?

    I have heard several interpretations and it seems unclear.
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I think the rule is clear enough; the maximum permitted speed for 1 1/8 oz. shells is 1290 measuring a single shell. That's what it says. I can't see how that is open to interpretation or in any way unclear.

    Neil
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Neil, When the AA Super handicaps came out there was a lot of discussion on their legality.

    At the time they were supposedly 1250 FPS and the rule was 1200. The magazine article I read declared them legal because there was (at the time) an allowable tolerance of 5% which made the upper limit 1260.

    So I was referring to ancient history, if you will.

    HM
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Halfmile, everyone thinks there was a 1200 rule. I've checked back to 1983 and never found such a rule. The 3-dram rule- based on SAAMI specifications which the ATA explicitly accepted - then in effect made the maximum 1290, though few understand that.

    Again, as I have said before, there's no speed tolerance, and I know about the other tolerances because I wrote them.

    Neil
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    The rule is very unclear. There are no testing standards in place for management at ATA registered shoots.

    In my opinion the shell in question should be fired from the competitors gun. There could easily be a difference of 100fps depending on which gun the shell is fired in. HMB
     
  16. mx2005

    mx2005 TS Member

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    The only thing I can add is that I was told by a lab person from one of the powder companys that ALL data in the loading manuals are made using a 30" barrel and for every inch you get 10-15 fps more, so if you look at the above numbers with a 10rs with a 35" barrel you are getting 60-75 fps more speed I would try it in the same conditions and use the two different barrel lengths to see the differnce.
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    HMB, you are correct that shoot management can't test shot speed, though they can charge weight. That's why the arbiters are specifically listed as "management" or "ATA official(s)."

    Neil
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    MX-2005, as I report in the above publication (page 5) , when I tested the effect of barrel length using 20 shots and two chronographs for added accuracy

    "There were 5 full-choke “trap” barrels with bores ranging from
    0.727 to 0.733 inches. They produced speeds from 1179 to 1188 fps.
    Two more with magnum chambers also fell within that range. A single
    34-inch trap barrel clocked 1201 fps."

    Which is an effect, but not very much, on the average, for an added four inches of tube.

    Neil
     
  19. Too Bad

    Too Bad TS Member

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    All I have read your posts and these are my thoughts.

    I recall Bruce Bowen posted similar reports several months ago.... that Remington Nitro 27's exceeded ATA maximum allowable 1290 fps.

    Tuscarora ……why should I use a skeet choke I was just reporting the results of my effort? I shoot a full choke Perazzi for ATA shoots, do you shoot a skeet choke?

    Halfmile… where in ATA rules do you find a 5% error range?

    Tom…. If factories use a skeet barrel for testing… then Nitro 27’s which are the primary handicap shell used by many ATA shooters would be exceeding ATA 1290 fps rule. See you at the AZ State shoot this week.

    Zzt……. Chrony suggests the barrel is at 5’ from the first screen. I was just reporting my results with the gun I shoot for capps.

    Ivanhoe….. I didn’t have a problem. AIA max allowable is 1290 fps… then ATA ought to reference SAAMI rules as well. They do not offer a +/_.

    Neil………. Thanks for your reasoned response.

    Grnberetcj…. They shells were 7 ½.

    Thanks all…

    Richard Luckett
     
  20. AJJ

    AJJ TS Member

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    Here we go once again, for how many times I can not count, JUST make the rule "1-1/8 oz of shot max" Weight you can check at the shoot, NOTHING else. Why does the ATA still keep this dummy rule of speed going. AJ.
     
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