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Reloads Not Allowed at 2010 Grand American

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Harv Shell, Mar 3, 2010.

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  1. Harv Shell

    Harv Shell TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    For the sake of clarity, I thought this topic deserved it's own thread. The following are posts by Doc Rively on another thread about why reloads will not be allowed at this years Grand.<br>
    <br>
    Bill and Lee Ann Martin’s $100,000 Grand American Challenge

    "Bill and Lee Ann Martin have provided a $100,000 grant to the Amateur Trapshooting Association for the purpose of promoting the sport of trapshooting through national competition at the Grand American Trapshooting Tournament August 3-14, 2010 in Sparta, Illinois at the World Shooting and Recreation Complex. The structure of the competition is a stipulation of the grant and has been decided upon by the title donors. The 2010 Grand American will have nine (9) handicap events. The event champion for each of the nine handicaps will be eligible for a shoot-off to be held Sat. Aug. 14. The winner of this shoot-off will win $100,000. There will be no opportunity to split or share the award, “the last shooter standing” wins the entire $100,000. If a situation occurs where a shooter is a repeat winner of a handicap event, the event runner-up for the event of the repeat win will be the $100,000 shoot-off participant. The final shoot-off for the $100,000 will be limited to nine shooters. In order to participate in the $100,000 Challenge a shooter must meet all current ATA eligibility requirements. There will be minimum target attainment levels to be met which will be determined in the near future. In order to qualify for the $100,000 Challenge a shooter must shoot a minimum of four (4) handicap events during the 2010 Grand American. It is a concern of the donors that a large cash prize such as this may tempt some to attempt to use nonconforming ammunition. The donors have requested a stipulation that all new ATA conforming ammunition be used in order to reduce this possibility. As a result the ATA will return to mandatory shell purchases at the Grand American through an ATA managed shell house. This is the basic structure as required by our generous donors. Further details will be provided as decided."

    Frank R. Rively

    ATA Executive Director<br>
    <br>
    "After careful consideration and conversation with a couple of the ammo companies, it was concluded that due to the logistics, personnel cost, and overall complexity, the only way to be cost effective was to bring back a mandatory shell purchase for all events. We are now studying the price points and costs to try to keep the cost as low as possible and comparable to new shell prices elsewhere."

    Frank R. Rively

    ATA Executive Director
     
  2. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    ***Reloads Not Allowed at 2010 Grand American***

    While I see the point of requiring mandatory shell purchases for the $100K prize, I fail to see why it would be needed for ALL events.

    Why not just require it of those shooters that wish to be eligible for the $100K? This way if people shoot their own reloads, then they are disqualified to shoot for the $100K.

    Also why does it have to be ALL events and not just limited to the HCP ones?

    The prize is certainly generous, but seems to me like this is just an excuse for someone to make some extra money selling shells.
     
  3. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    ***Reloads Not Allowed at 2010 Grand American***

    Frank,

    This is as it should be. It just takes away the temptation for the honest shooter.

    The Grand American was shot for years as a factory shell only shoot and it ought to return to that format.

    ss
     
  4. EE

    EE Banned User Banned

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    vpr80, the answer to your question is right there in the statement. The ammo companies want more sales.

    EE
     
  5. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree that new shells must be used. I don't care if you shoot an 8ga with 4oz of shot, you still have to HIT THE TARGET and a margionally illegal shell will mot make that happen. You have a good thing going, don't screw it up. Besided we know within about four people who will probably win the $100 grand and all four shoot factory shells that are given to them.

    ps. I did send a letter of thanks to the generous donors.
     
  6. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    ***Reloads Not Allowed at 2010 Grand American***

    There are plenty of reloaders that load legal shells to make shooting the grand a cost effective way of shooting it.

    Changing the rules now would be a very foolish and stupid mistake on the part of the ATA and you requesting it.

    If you make this change I request your resignation.

    If the Martins want this stipulation forget the option of theirs and pursue
    Lloyds of London for an insurance policy for same option.

    I am against another rule change, especially for this OPTION.

    And how can it be enforced? Shells can be changed at the shooters car.

    STUPID-STUPID-STUPID MOVE-STUPID RULE CHANGE The average shooters saves a lot reloading so they can attend.

    The only way this can be done is give the shells to the shooters as they go on the line at each trap by ATA OFFICIALS.

    I am totally against mandatory new shells and I do not shoot the grand anymore.

    The use of reloads has been working, why change? The only reason I see it is for the ATA to make more money.

    If they could sell shells for $4.00 a box buying in bulk go for it, if not forget it.


    Dr.longshot
    Gary Bryant
     
  7. missemucho

    missemucho Member

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    I agree with vpr80 completely. This makes attending the Grand a lot less attractive to me. At the risk of being known as one of the "cut and paste" devotees on here, can someone please explain to me who/what exactly "cost effective"
    refers to in this quote?

    "After careful consideration and conversation with a couple of the ammo companies, it was concluded that due to the logistics, personnel cost, and overall complexity, the only way to be cost effective was to bring back a mandatory shell purchase for all events."

    John
     
  8. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    EE, I am just dying to see the prices for shells. I pay approx $53 per flat for the Federals that I shoot and they work just fine.
     
  9. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Something smells fishy!

    First of all, there is no way to stop competitors from splitting the purse anyway they want somewhere down the line. I seriously doubt they will be put in solitary confinement until the shootoff.

    Next...anyone who has been around this sport long enough knows that illegal ammunition will not give cheaters enough of a edge on trap yardage to put them in the winners circle in a hundred bird event. The people that would try this don't have a Chinaman's chance in hell of breaking 100 straight with a hammer, much less a shotgun at registered targets. I believe the Martins know this.

    I am not aware if the ATA has responded to this yet so we will have to wait and see, but if it is true, I think the new shell rule is a underhanded ploy by the ATA...simple as that!

    Mark Rounds
     
  10. over/under

    over/under Member

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    Make the Ohio State Shoot look better and better.
     
  11. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    With attendance dropping at all shoots due primarily to the state of the economy, it would seem to me to be a very foolish move to mandate factory ammo & increase costs at the Grand. IMO a terrible decision!
     
  12. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I can't see an insurance company wanting to be involved with this. After all, this a certain loss situation, as there WILL be a $100,000 loss at the end of the shoot. Therefore, the premium would be $100,000 plus whatever the insurance company wanted for profit and to cover its handling expenses.

    I think this is a great gesture on the part of the donors but the ATA could handle the factory load stipulation for that shoot-off by simply polling the nine contestants with regard to their choice of ammo and having a flat or two of each on hand at the shoot-off trap(s), where they could be sold and handed out as needed.

    That would appease both the donors and the 99.9% of the Grand attendees that will not be involved in this shoot-off. After all, if a shooter had to rely upon illegal ammo to get into this shoot-off, he/she would be an unlikely winner of it.

    Ed
     
  13. slick50

    slick50 Member

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    Great idea if you want to continue to drive financially limited shooters out of the sport. I thought the e-board was making some very good common sense changes that would allow shooters with limited finances to attend this national event. I believe this new proposal will again reduce participation by shooters that can't afford to attend. I understand the fairness issue for the big money prizes but it makes more sense to just require the new ammo for the big money events. Just my opinion...

    Bill
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Dr. Longshot -

    Are you the same Gary Bryant that hasn't shot at the Grand since 2005? The guy with 800 targets in 2009 (none of which were at the Grand)?

    This affects you how?

    You said you are totally against new shells, and don't shoot the Grand anymore. Were you against it when it when the Grand was in your backyard and you participated every year? Did you shoot (and pay for) the factory shells then? Was there the same problem in Vandalia with that requirement that you anticipate there will be at Sparta? I don't recall any big scandals from the days of the Grand being in Vandalia in which the winner of the GAH had his prizes taken away because he cheated (which isn't to say people didn't cheat).

    Scott
     
  15. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    This is going to get good boys! I wish it happened on the weekend so I could get my popcorn and beer! Hell, I may get the beer anyway!! Tom Rhoads
     
  16. Gun Run

    Gun Run Member

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    Tom Rhoads:

    You better stay out of this! You know how you get!
    Wayne Downham / Camden, IN
     
  17. K80

    K80 TS Member

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    I shoot only factory ammo, however in my opinion the ATA is using this opportunity as a "back door" to re-start the furnishing of ammo with your event fees. It would not make any sense for them to do it only for the handicap or the Martin event, they need to do it in volume to get the best possible deals from the manufacturers. Most likely they realized they should have never given up this income stream and need to reinstate it. I'm sure they also know they cannot be to much over the market price where their prices would amount to highway robbery!

    I wonder if those who use reloads would still be allowed to used them on the practice traps, I'm guessing no, but.....

    Would they form some type of partnership with Gamaliel Shooting Supply or are they done with selling ammo, this might be a sore spot considering how Gamaliel has been reasonable with their pricing from previous Grand Americans.

    Some balancing act for sure.

    K80
     
  18. Don Steele

    Don Steele Well-Known Member

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    Average Ed makes a coupla good points. His suggestion about having new shells on hand at the final Shootoff ought to allay any fears about that kind of cheating. Personally, back in the day when we had to buy shells for each event @ the Shellhouse...I looked at it as a chance to accumulate a bunch of once fired empties for the rest of the year's shooting.
     
  19. partygirl

    partygirl TS Member

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    Oh come on, make new shells mandatory just for the cap events. That's the way to do it. More required money = less attendance. vrp80 and Slick 50 are right in my view.
     
  20. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    The proof will be in the attendance. If it goes down , $100k down the tubes for nothing. Honestly, in this day an age $100k really isn't alot of money.To sell one's independance for money is akin to slavery or prostitution. If there is another abnormally hot spell in Sparta, the Grand will need more than $100k, to boost interest and attendance. Ammo cost is the cheapest cost in attending any big event. It is the principle that a person or company making a donation that will guarantee a good pay day to one person has the clout to affect everyone,this is the main problem. Let the 9 persons participating in the championship event shoot with donated factory ammo. Wow, they will most likely need 10 flats. What kind of managerial problem does this pose.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
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