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RELOADING, WHO'S RESPONSIBLE IN CASE OF ACCIDENT!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by senior smoke, Sep 4, 2009.

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  1. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    RELOADING, WHO

    HELLO:
    i have been hanging around the smaller gun clubs lately. alot of league shooters are reloading. a few without a powder scale. they tell me the reloading companies jack up the powder charges on the sheet they use just in case of a potential accident. i always felt that most blow ups are due to barrel obstructions, not an over load of powder. years ago before powder bushings, i suppose you could in error place the bar shot hole by the powder, but seems unlikely. i have seen a couple gun and barrel blow ups over 40 years of shooting. first words usually are, who will be sued? with all the disclaimers on shooting products you would think the shooter who made the error in reloading would be held accountable. if you are standing next to a gun or barrel blow up and are sent to the hospital what recourse do you have for medical bills? if i find out someone on my squad does not use a powder scale in his or her reloading, i will drop off the squad. some people may think this is to harsh, but for the price of a powder scale, you would think the reloader and fellow shooters eye sight is worth the purchase alone inorder to protect himself or others. what do you think?
    steve balistreri
     
  2. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    With today's communications we can get around the world in less than a 1/4 of a second,,,, BUT it takes years to get past that 1/4 inch of skull to peoples brain.

    I would also get off a squad that I thought would indanger me. Dont know why in heavens name that people would reload with out a scale.

    As far as who is liable??? Well you cant get blood out of a turnip, but to me the person that blows up a gun should be the one liable.

    But I guess as far as reloading and blowing up a gun... there are those who have and those who will sometime in their life.

    WesleyB
     
  3. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Steve,

    I think the person who made the shell has a huge liability if an accident occurs. We hear of guns coming apart, and I doubt all of them are due to bad shells. But how do you prove it?


    I will not let most people shoot their reloads in my good guns if they want to try them out. I have stopped letting people shoot my reloads (Girlfriend and family members excluded).


    If you know someone is not reloading safely, the chances of a problem increase. There is one shooter I will not shoot with at our club for that reason. You are not being too harsh. Stay away from trouble when you can.

    Don Verna
     
  4. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    Twostraight_ thats a good one, "sue em for just being stupid". can you immagine the low suits then??
    steve
     
  5. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Alas, the truly stupid ones have little money and no insurance.

    Let's hope the damages are minimal, and you can cover your attorney costs.

    Don Verna
     
  6. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    In general when I hear of somebody talks about sueing someone I instantly thinkl of ( GOT TO BE A LIBERAL ). They are looking for something for nothing.
     
  7. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    I'm a lot more concerned about the unsafe gun handling I see than a gun blowing up.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have a powder scale. I usually load between 500-700 shells at a time. How many should I check with mu scale. How often does Remington check the powder in the lots they load? If Federal loads 150,000 22 cartridges in an afternoon, how many are checked?

    If you are injured by a gun blowing up at a shoot and you hire a lawyer he will file suit against the person shooting the gun, the gun manufacturer, the gun club, the ATA, the manufacturer of the reloader, the manufacturer of the powder, shot and wad, and anyone else remotely related to the incident.

    I have difficulty with our legal system allowing so many successful suits against individuals who may have made a simple unintentional mistake but let others who commit serious crimes off with nearly no penalty. If a gun blows up and results in you getting a cut requiring two stitches, you can sue and get some money. If you are shot by someone holding you up, you will not get anything.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    i have to ask again: how do you make a reload that will blow up a shotgun? i have been unable to make a reload that will even exceed proof load pressures.

    i am not advocating trying to do so. i would just like the information.

    i do think that high pressure reloads over a long period of time can cause catastrophic failures in shotguns but it would take lots of shooting.

    bruce bowen
     
  10. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    Bruce:
    i think you have to add more shot than reccomended. i do not believe excessive powder will blow up a barrel, it has to be added weight in shot, or an obstruction. thanks my opinion.
    steve
     
  11. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    steve,

    If you think an excessive load won't blow up a barrel, why are you concerned whether or not someone uses a powder scale?

    My dad reloaded for nearly 40 years and never owned a scale.

    Basically all I use mine for is to tweak the bushing when I change lots of powder. But all that changes is a tenth or two. Then I'll load 8 lbs of powder without measuring any shells. I guess if you're into loading different powders and such, or not using a progressive reloader, it would be a good thing to check.

    I do use it religiously for my centerfire loading, but that's not done on a progressive so a lot can go wrong.

    Tom
     
  12. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Bruce,

    I think you have it mostly right. Problem is that trapshooters and other target shooters will fire a tremendous number of shells in a relatively short period of time. All it would take is a load that is a bit too hot and maybe five or ten thousand rounds later, you could run into trouble. If there is a defect in the materials that the gun is made from, you have a catastrophe waiting to happen. HP White labs had a pretty good explanation for it. I think they used the term "fatigue". I don't push the envelope and would rather buy a different powder or buy a different primer and stick with loads that are well under the maximums. Just because a load is listed, does not mean that it's always safe. A few variables that stack up in the wrong direction and you could be in trouble. Start with a low pressure load and you would have a better chance of keeping pressures within reason. I've tried to load double charges of a few powders and found that it could be done. It would almost have to be deliberate, since you would probably notice something wrong while doing so. I don't think it's the "one" shell that does a gun in. I think it's more like the last 50,000 that may have done the damage. The shell that was fired when the gun actually self destructs might not be an overload. It's just when the gun has reached it's limits. Add a hidden defect or corrosion in the wrong place and it can happen sooner.

    That said, there is no excuse for careless reloading. There is enough published material and data that you can do this pretty safely. There are also reckless drivers and careless shooters. I've seen them and usually give them some room. If I have an idea that someone is careless in their reloading practices, I give them a wide berth. I can understand the frustration these days, when trying to find components. I just look a little harder or use a different load. I'd love to "use up" all of the miscellaneous components I have on hand, but if it does not "fit" the load, it won't happen. That's my choice.

    Check the first three documents in the link above. It's an interesting read. Unfortunately, some people may not get the right idea from what they have written.
     
  13. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    There is a gentleman in Washington who shoots Annie Oakleys and Buddy shoots with an old Browning O/U that is so loose it rattles. It has been repaired many times by Browning. Last time he sent it in, Browning told him no, the gun was worn out. Now this guy shoots short, ported barrels. He has to put at least 1/2lb of Longshot (yes, that's the powder he uses) in every load because if you're standing next to him, you will feel the reprecussion all the way through your body. Well, a few years ago we were all shooting Annie Oakleys at the PITA Grand Pacific in the evening. This shooter was the second shot in line. When the first shooter missed, he let rip with one of his hot loads, and I'm serious as a heart attack here, FLAMES shot out of end of his barrel about 8 feet long and the ground just shook! He not only broke the target, he almost broke my eardrums because I was standing next to him. Fast forward a year. We are shooting the PITA Grand Pacifc in Hillsboro, Oregon when the Grand was split between Medford and Hillsboro. On Thursday evening, things got real slow and some great shooters from Bandon, Oregon invited a few of us to their club to shoot Annies under the lights. Well, that is like dangling a fish in front of a cat, so, off we went. There was me, my partner Dave, Boone Heinz, and this shooter with the Browning. He was still shooting it with those loads, and breaking just about everything he saw. This time, I knew better, and stood at least 3-4 shooters away from him. Wouldn't you know it, he and I had to shoot off several times that night, so, there we are, shoulder to shoulder. Everytime his gun went off it sounded like a cannon. I think Bruce is absolutely correct. You have to really work at it to get a gun to let loose...... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  14. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Dan/Bruce,

    Do you conclude the relatively new CG's that are coming apart are defective?

    Are the older K-80's showing their age after years of abuse?

    Don Verna
     
  15. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Don... While I am not a metalurgist (sp?) I have to think it is either a defect in the materials being used, or in the design and manufacturing of the barrels. Bruce is much more qualified to answer that question and I defer to him for the answer. I have always wondered why Kreighoffs "seem" to have so much trouble while other guns don't suffer from the same problems. I'm sure there are many other brand name guns that have the same amount, or more, loads run through them, with absolutely no problems. Why would an older K80 show its age after years of abuse and blow up while so many Perazzi's, 90T's, Browning Bt-99's, etc. of the same age are not? I don't have the answer to your question, but, in any case, I will not shoot either a KGun or a CG when there are so many other tried and true guns available to choose from that don't have the same history. I don't need any other reason to temp fate, do you? I'm comfortable with my Perazzi DB-81, as I have never heard of one blowing up yet. (Knocking on wood as I type this) Just my opinion... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  16. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Bruce, a question. Anyone else who wants to chime in.

    I'm a pot shooter. Lots of years. I've never seen a gun explode at a pot shoot. Seen a couple break, never explode, and the breaks were the same guy. I suspect that the slower burning powders that pot shooters use result in a pressure curve that is more forgiving than what is produced by typical fast burning target powders. All the guns I've seen or heard of blowing up (actually explode) were with target ammo rather than pot shooting ammo, plus a lot more rounds fired with target ammo. (typical trap shooting) Any thoughts?
     
  17. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Never give or take a reload from someone on the line. If someone runs low on shells and you give him a reload and something happens, you are in deep. Always carry new for your extras. This passes the liabality on to the manufacturer.
     
  18. Onceabum

    Onceabum TS Member

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    I have been there when three guns have blown up on the trap line. Each time, nobody could come up with a reason for it happening. Unless it is something glaring I doubt we will ever be sure why a gun blows up.

    BB
     
  19. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    The plan should be to control what you can in order to help prevent problems. You have control over the loads, the gun, and the maintenance. Take as much risk out of the equation. If a gun fails because of a defect, thats another thing. If it is preventable, why not take the measures to do so.

    As for the liability, you own the shot you took. If you hit a lawyer in your hunting party, it's better not to think of the consequences. Make each shot count! :)
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bruce Bowen- I agree with your past posts and experiments with trying to blow up guns with nearly a double charge of powder and barrel obstructions. It is difficult to do and takes several attempts to gradually damage the barrel to the point it ruptures. I have repeated a few of your tests (double powder, double shot, no wad) with the same results you got.

    But, using the wrong powder can result in a blown barrel. Twenty years ago we had an out of town shooter arrive at our club. He signed up to shoot a practice round be for the registered event. I was on th porch 75 yards away. I heard his first shot and was surprised. I listened to his next two shots and knew something was wrong. I started quickly walking toward the practice trap, but not fast enough. On the fifth shot, the Rem. 1100 blew into many parts. We found some, but not all of them. Nobody was seriously hurt. The shooter has a badly bruised hand. The shooter next to him got a cut on his belly (bellies are prone to damage because they stick out so far). I don't know why the other four shooters on the practice squad did not recognize something was wrong.

    Pat Ireland
     
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