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Reloading / Wad Compression Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Jim Porter, Sep 9, 2008.

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  1. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    I am using a recommended load by the wad manufacturer (I will not mention the name because it is not relevant to the question) and the loads look fine and do not open up or give any problems in any way - BUT _ I cut a few open because the shot filled the hull a little higher that I expected even though they crimp well. I found that the some of the wad side walls had collapsed by about one third of their origional height.

    I suspect they collapse when the gun is fired. What ill effect will this have on patterns if any?
     
  2. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    i dont see that the shot cup does any real difference just makes for easy loading. Didn't have them for many years. I still use the old win Mark 5s for hunting they are plastic hull and no shot cup. They do better to me than the ones with a cup Other thing a 410 uses the same 1/2 oz cup for All loads rick
     
  3. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Wad pressure went the way of the fiber wad.

    Now, all you do is seat the wad so that the top of the pedals are about up to the top rim of the hull.

    The shot cup does serve a function in keeping the shot off the surface of the barrel, expecially important with steel shot.

    I even set my wad a tad bit higher and let the precrimp and final crimp stations push it down to form a factory looking shell.

    Whiz White<BR>
    P/W Distributor
     
  4. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Jim Porter

    By saying "Sidewall" are you referring to the cushion section between the shot cup and the over-powder cup? If that's partially collapsed in the finished hull and the crimps are good, I would not worry about it at all. The cushion section will usually collapse further when the shell is fired. Having the cushion partially collapsed should have no real effect on the performance of the shell. Wad pressure is also not all that critical with the one piece plastic wads and plastic hulls we use today. I usually seat the wad down onto the powder and don't bother to add any additional pressure.
     
  5. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    Quack Shot - Thanks for the reply. I push the wad just far enough to clear the fingers / practically no pressure but the petals are about level with the rim below the crimp indentions. In the old days I pushed a ton of wads into hulls with my fingers and have never bought into the wad pressure business after we stopped loading fiber wads. When the shot drops it almost runs out the TOP of the hull, maybe 1/8" below the very top of the hull and I have to cycle the machine slowly or a shot or two will end up on top of the finished crimp. I have loaded many many thousands of shells and you would not think the crimp would form without collapsing the hull sides and they may if I were not using new AA hulls. And yes I am referring to the wad section between the over powder cup and below the shot cup as the area that is collapsing. It is a Winchester clone with two vertical outer side sections and two inner curved sections. I have cut about twenty of these and about 1/3 are somewhat collapsed while the rest are unharmed. They look good, don't open up after a day or two and seem to shoot well, there just seems to be a lot of component volume for the hull. I don't know, maybe the added internal pressure caused by the crimp force may make for a more consistant burn. I just keep wondering when something bad will show up with this load but everybody that sees them says they wish they could get a new AA to crimp like these.
     
  6. Wilma Harris

    Wilma Harris TS Member

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    Jim, cut open some of your favorite factory loads using the same hull and I think you will see the same thing in them that you find in your reloads.

    There used to be a wad called the Lage Uniwad out there that adjusted its self for different hulls by collapsing the needed amount to close and crimp different hulls. It was advertised and sold with this intent.
     
  7. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    When I set up my PW I adjust the wad depth to seat the wad on the powder. I adjust until the shell will not move when I push it upward. If powder volume is such that the shot is too high in the shell I increase the pressure on the wad to collapse the shot cup supports. When the wad is too deep, I lower the wad depth and allow the crimp to push the wad and shot down. This ensures good crimps.
     
  8. smifshot

    smifshot TS Member

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    Big Jim...could be you are putting too much pider and shots in the hull. Or maybe your home made shot has too much moisture. Whatever is happening is directly proportional to the dry food you are feeding ole Rowdy. Could be you need to enroll in the Goines Reloading Seminar. I hear there is a special class starting soon. Take care..Pops and Fred
     
  9. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Jim Porter

    It could be that the design of the wad isn't quiite right for the new AA hulls, if that is what you are using. There were a few clones that appeared to have some trouble with the basewad. The wad would fit into the tapered section if the basewad, but required a little more wad pressure to get them there. Primarily, the seal ring on the wad's overpowder cup would hang on the top edge of the basewad section. A better design would be one that has the small longitudinal vent grooves in the overpowder cup, and have a slight chamfer on the lower seal edge. When loading the new style AA wads, I do add just enough wad pressure to make it difficult to rotate the hull in the press, on the downstroke of the wad seating operation. That would be with any MEC tool. Normally, I add just enough pressure top seat the wad on the powder. On my presses, the adjustment does not need to be changed between hulls. It works just fine for all of them.

    Not knowing the exact components you are using limits our ability to relate our experience to what you are using.

    I'm sure if you contact Kevin at Downrange Manufacturing, he could advise you on wad selection. He is a pretty good resource for information.
     
  10. Stone Man

    Stone Man TS Member

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    I would like to enroll in the Goines Reloading Seminar. What are the fees? I heard there was some good information on using Promo Powder. I hear it's a great powder to shoot doubles with.
     
  11. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I can't offer any scientiific proof but I like my components to fit the volume of the hull as closely as possible without compressing the wad. (with either the wad seater or the crimp). Could be just personal preferance.
     
  12. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    The diameter of a wad cup to fit the AA taper hull is 0.702".

    Whiz
     
  13. smifshot

    smifshot TS Member

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    May be that Stone Man is a short fella named Happy Harold.

    Smif
     
  14. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    Jim,

    Shot filling the shell up to 1/8" of the top of the shell is not right; everything now becomes relevant, assuming you are loading the new Win AA 2 piece hull that has a base wad.

    Post all components you are using. What kind of machine may also be relevant if you are using a Universal charge bar in a MEC.

    Jason
     
  15. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to everyone who responded. Waverunner- you asked for specifics as did another person or two. The load was recomened by Kevin from Down Range at the Grand. It is a Versalite with 20.5 of Green Dot, 1 1/8oz shot and a once fired new style AA hull. I have asked him for info before and he is top notch as are his wads, this one just looks too full while loading. They look good and have not caused any problems as of yet.
     
  16. 682b

    682b Member

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    Just so everyone does not have to check the site for the data her




    Recipes
    Dram Equiv. Shot Wt.
    (ounces) Velocity
    (fps) Primer Powder Wad Grains Approx. psi Spacers Print
    --- 1 1/8 1,090 Win 209 Green Dot Versalite 17.5 7,800 -
    --- 1 1/8 1,145 Win 209 Green Dot Versalite 19.5 8,000 -
    --- 1 1/8 1,200 Win 209 Green Dot Versalite 21 9,000 -
    --- 1 1/8 1,250 Win 209 Green Dot Versalite 22 9,900 - --- 1 1/8 1,145 Fed 209A Green Dot Versalite 18.5 9,300 -
    --- 1 1/8 1,200 Win 209 Green Dot Versalite 19.5 10,400 -
     
  17. 333t

    333t Member

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    Jim:

    Sound to me like you have too much stack height in your components. The wad may need to be shorter. In my experience, the wad should be seated firmly on the powder but not compressed. When the shot is added, it should fill the case to about the bottom of the crimp folds which would be about 5/16" or so from the top of the case. This should result in a nice even crimp.

    Wads that are partially crushed in loading may work most of the time but they can also cause bloopers. If a wad has to be crushed to fit in the case, it is the wrong wad.

    Phil
     
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