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Reloading Rio Hulls

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by claybustin hoosier 52, Jun 26, 2007.

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  1. claybustin hoosier 52

    claybustin hoosier 52 Member

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    Just got home from league shoot. One of the guys was asking me about reloading Rio Hulls. He wants to know what type of wads to use in these hulls. Are they straight wall or tapered wall hull? I told him I would put a thread on here to see if I could get him an answer.
     
  2. revsublime

    revsublime TS Member

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    do a search on rio hulls. You'll find that they're probably not worth the effort.

    there's a nice pic somewhere here where the basewad has crept up the hull.
     
  3. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    In One Word......DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are garbage and have issues. The RIO, Kemen, Wolf, Mirage, and similar hulls have shown some base wad migration issues. I won't even fire them the FIRST time. It's a waste of good components to try and load them. They are a "Cheddite" style hull and are of the "Straight" wall type. There's a lot of data out there, but it's like I said, it's not worth the trouble.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
     
  4. claybustin hoosier 52

    claybustin hoosier 52 Member

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    Thanks guys, I'll pass the information on. I will try and talk this guy out of reloading them.
     
  5. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    Quack Shot,

    Was the one with the raised base wad on the first firing?

    The other one blew the base wad out of the hull? Did it clear the barrel?

    Both hulls looked like they are not reloads.

    Jason
     
  6. bridgetoofar

    bridgetoofar TS Member

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    Don't know about the plastics, but the RIO papers load just fine with Federal components. No base wad issues.
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Since the Estates and Federals are around in abundance, I pick them up and reload them once. they are a much better choice than the Rio et al. they would easily stand 3-4 reloads, but they're all over the place so why bother.

    I have bad luck with Fiocchi and Nobel, Thrilling were OK, the other odd ball shells I never tried.

    HM
     
  8. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    I have loaded 1000's of these hulls. Primer selection is important because they require a larger primer. American 209's will fall out. Use Rio or Nobel Sport. It is a "Cheddite" type hull and use listed data for them.

    There is a lot of junk out there about basewad movement. These type of hulls have been used for years in europe without problems. They are the defacto world wide standard for shotgun hulls. If they were so bad and guns were blowing up don't you think someone would change the design.

    I rarely load more that once because they are so plentiful there is no reason. I suspect but have no evidence that the people who are claiming basewad movement are reloading on prtesses that don't support the hull adaquately during the repriming step. Just my opinion.

    TB

    p.s have 50+ flats of Kemens and will continue shooting them for a long time.
     
  9. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    With the price of lead, wads, powder & primers is it worth reloading any cheap hull to begin with?

    Seriously ... if you purchase 8 flats of ammo that will get you 2000 hulls to work with. Now lets say that you can get 8 reloadings out of a premy hull and only 4 reloadings out of a cheapy hull ... is that about close?

    Now lets say the premy shells cost you $60 a flat to get that would cost you $480 and the cheapy shells cost you $40 a flat to get and that would cost you $320 for a savings of $160 but in the long run that savings is not a savings at all because your going to have to get new hulls after only 4 reloads so that is now another $320 spent to get 8 reloads vs. the original 8 reloads of the premy hulls which you only have $480 invested in and not $640 to get 8 reloads for the cheapy shells.

    Just where is the savings in reloading cheap hulls unless your scavenging them all from the dumpster at the club?
     
  10. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Don't have to do any dumster diving at my club for these hulls. Just have the trap boys empty the range buckets in a box in your trunk if you want them. These are great hulls for reloading if you know what you are doing. Anyone who would try to reload this hull more than once or twice is nuts. In my apionion anyone who tries to load any hull 4-8 times is sacraficing performance. Even back in the gold old days of the one piece "AA's" I would not reload more than about 4 times performance suffers too much.

    The nice thing about these hulls is that they are so plentyful that you can load them once and not worry about the drop in performance of multi loaded hulls. I have run my load for these hulls across a chronograph numerous time and not had a varation of more than 10 FPS high to low.

    TB
     
  11. gcbluerock

    gcbluerock Member

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    TBaber has it correct. There are a couple dozen different brands of shells coming out of UEE which with reasonable respect are all the same. All of these load just fine. UEE is about the size of Wincheater, Remington, and Federal, combined with Home Depot. Nothing wrong with these hulls or shells.

    My favorite load in these is; Kemen hulls
    FIO 616 primer
    # 30 MEC w/ 700X
    Downrange XL-1 wad
    1 1/8 oz of shot
     
  12. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    waverider

    The sectioned hull was shown after the first firing. It was NOT reloaded. In one half, I left the basewad where it was. In the other half, I knocked it out. You can see how flimsy the hull's tube is. I have seen this in many of the UEE manufactured odd brand hulls upon the FIRST firing. I just picked out eight black Mirage hulls from the remains of a couple of boxes, that had the same basewad migration evident. If you know what to look for, you will see them. The primer looks a little bit recessed when looking into the hull with a good light.

    TBaber

    It isn't a "Junk" theory about basewad movement in these hulls. Give me an address and I'll be happy to send you some. I won't slice them first and will leave them "as is" for your enjoyment. I don't know of any gun that has been damaged by it, but it certainly won't be mine. I won't shoot these garbage shells in any of my guns as factory new, let alone any that have been reloaded.

    I was actually going to "TRY" to reload a few boxes of them, but that was before I discovered the loose basewads. I discovered them because I was inspecting some hulls before loading them. I found some raised basewads, sectioned a case, and there it was, in Black and "Blue"! I looked at a few hundred more of the various UEE brands and found some from each brand I looked at.

    As much as I hate to say it, I might actually be in agreement with....Lumper? Oh tell me it's not so! I wouldn't waste good components on these hulls either. I'd rather load up the Estates or Federals with the paper basewads, than play around with these "Cheapo Cheddites"! There are enough premium hulls out there that there should be no reason to play with UEE, RIO, Kemen, Diana, Wolf, Mirage, etc. I picked up a couple of hundred Win AA and Remington STS once fired this evening at a local club for nothing. I just had to pick them up off the ground. You can be sure I didn't bother picking up any RIOs. I looked through the pile of empties later on and found a bunch of Kemens with basewad issues as I had described. I certainly didn't have to go far to find them.

    Add the basewad issue to some weak/off sounding shells in cold weather with low velocities, and you have a losing combination. Just my Not-So-Humble opinion.

    Quack!
     
  13. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Quackshot... Your fears are unfounded. If this "problem" was as prevalent as you state there should be guns blowing up everywhere and there should be base wad litter all over our ranges. Neither are true. I know of only one case of a blow up of a factory shell in recent memory in my area and it was one of the new AA's. This case is under litigation with an uncertain outcome. I understand there are a handfull of cases involving the New AA's. I suspect that these few cases are just part of the typical learning curve for a new product.

    UEE (Rio and Kemens parent) have been making this type of hull for decades so I can not believe that your comments are valid. Reloading in Europe is rare so I suspect that UEE makes no claim as to the reloadibility of their hull and probably makes no effort to promote reloading.

    Rio/Kemen ammo is some of the best factory ammo available. Its an excellent product. I continue to state that these hulls reload fine if you know what you are doing unfortunately many reloaders do not. These are "Cheddite Type" hulls and one should use listed data for those hulls.


    TB
     
  14. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    These hulls, like AAs are too dangerous to reload. Please leave them on the ground for me to pick up.
     
  15. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    TBaber

    First of all, don't question my integrity. I didn't make this up. I've reported my observations accurately and truthfully. I did NOT claim that I have any knowledge of instances of damage to a firearm, just my assessment that it is a possibility. I never claimed to have seen a basewad exit the hull either. If it moves a little, it could also move a lot. Your claim that it is due to an "unsupported" case head during "reloading" is absurd. These are "Once Fired" so the defect would be in the original manufacturing process. So your "Opinion" is quite flawed. I offered to send you some examples, unaltered, for your inspection. I have nothing to gain from making this defect known, except that it may prevent someone from having trouble while trying to reload these hulls. I'm soooo glad that you have loaded thousands of these without ill effects. I don't like to see shooters becoming statistics to support the "dangers" of the shooting sports "arguments" of the antigunner cults. I would personally NOT reload these hulls, nor would I advise someone to do so, either.

    You'd think that if UEE was making these hulls for "decades", they'd be able to keep them together. I've heard of the Winchester AA basewad separations, but have never seen one. I am convinced that they probably happened, but have never seen any evidence to support that, except for the few photos and assertions of some reliable people. I've seen many of these basewad migrations in the UEE manufactured hulls, first hand. I would have the tendency to believe my own eyes and will have to disregard ANY argument from you to the contrary. Like I said, I'd be happy to provide some affected hulls to support my observations. If you'd like, I can send some to a neutral third party with the technical expertise and integrity to report on a thorough examination of what is provided to them. Provide an address or shut up.

    Now, can you provide the details of the case involving the Winchester AA hulls that you mentioned in your post? I've never seen any documentation of any legal action concerning them. I'd love to see something concrete.

    Quack!
     
  16. bwvan

    bwvan TS Member

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    I have loaded over twenty thousand noble sport primers in Wolf and Rio hulls and I've never had a problem. I use 22 grains of Rex II powder with a Downrange Windjammer Replacement wad.
     
  17. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Quack...

    I am not questioning your intergerty at all. I just think you are carrying this "Chicken Little" act a little far. If what you state was such a problem we would have to stop shooting anything except Remington and Gold Medal ammo because every other shell is made exactly like the Rio/Kemen.

    This is great ammo and I do resent your implications that its too dangerous to shoot even when new.

    The sky is not full of blown base wads.

    TB

    p.s. my information regarding the suit against Winchester regarding a blow up of a new AA is from the Plantiff. The suit is real. He exisits but I do not feel it would be fair to him to identify him on this forum.
     
  18. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    TBaber

    You did indeed question my integrity. I simply reported a problem and you denied it existed. It is a very real concern and not at all "Unfounded". If you choose to ignore it, that's simply your business, but do not show me disrespect for my opinion. I simply do NOT wish to shoot these shells and I would certainly not recommend that ANYONE reload them. You can resent that position all you want. It's quite a reasonable and prudent recommendation given my observations. Some people had reported basewad movement with the Winchester AA and quite a few reputable people decided not to use them. It's simply not worth the risk to use these UEE manufactured hulls, for me anyway! I like to stay on the safe side and not risk my life and limb, and those of my fellow shooters. I simply made a choice not to use them and made my reasons for that public. Someone asked for advice, and I gave them the information I had with substantial evidence and background. They can make a decision for themselves, whether to reload, or continue using those hulls.

    If you really "Knew" what you were doing in reference to reloading, you'd investigate the concern before making denials and continuing to use them. A simple but THOROUGH inspection of the hulls before loading is about all that was required for me to find this. It may be more prevalent in certain batches of hulls, but I didn't have to look far to find more after the first one. I inspect each and every hull, outside and in, with an ample light source while sorting them. I will take notice of anything that appears odd, especially if something is looking back at me from the inside.

    Not every other shell is made like the RIO/Kemen/UEE hulls as you claimed. Even other "Cheddite" style hulls seem to be unaffected by this concern. I've looked at quite a few of the "Other" brands and have not seen the same problem. There are many other alternatives to the RIO/UEE manufactured ammunition, even within the same price range. I have absolutely no need to save 10 or 20 cents a box and risk damage to my gun or possible injury, even if it may be remote. It's like I said before, you can do as you please, but don't show me disrespect for my opinions.
     
  19. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Quack...

    Sorry that I offended you but your comments gave me the impression that you were afraid of ALL multi piece hulls from any source. Now you say its only Rio/Kemen.... Which is it?

    Rio/Kemen/UEE is great ammo. You are convinced that they are an accident waiting to happen. You are wrong. Like I said... If the ammo was as bad as you say its is then there would be guns blowing up all over the place and the sky would be raining base wads. Neither is true so don't bad mouth this ammo.

    TB
     
  20. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    TBaber

    My issue is with the UEE manufactured hulls, such as the RIO, Kemen, Wolf, Mirage, etc. These are the ones that I have seen the concern in and these are the ones I mentioned and reported on. I never claimed to have seen anything in any other hull. I specifically went out of my way to mention that I did NOT see a migrated base wad in any other hull such as the Winchester AA and some "other" Cheddite "Style" hulls. I never said I didn't use any multi-piece hulls at all, nor did I say I was "afraid" of them. You continue to put words into my mouth, make assumptions, or misinterpret what you have read.

    Your assertions that my concerns remain unfounded are truly absurd. I never claimed to have seen a basewad exit the hull. I've never said I have seen or experienced any damage to a firearm or person as a result, nor have I heard of any. I was VERY specific and went out of my way to say so, at length. There is a distinct possibility that a basewad could exit the hull and become an obstruction in the bore. If it moves 1/4", what would prevent it from moving a foot or more? Similar observations were reported with the Winchester AA hulls with regard to "migration". Some were reported to have moved a little and some were reported to become lodged in the barrel or exit the muzzle. I have never seen any in the Win AA, but I will not question the validity of the information or question the integrity of those that have truthfully reported it.

    I did not "bad mouth" your precious bargain ammunition. I simply reported a concern that I had observed with it, supplied some background and evidence, and made reasonable recommendations based upon my observations. I stated my position about using such defective ammunition and made it clear. I offered to supply you or an independent observer with unaltered samples of what I found to support my observations. If you don't like my position on this, you can go pack sand. My opinion of these hulls and my recommendations remain unchanged!

    Quack!
     
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