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Reloading RIO hulls.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by DENNISMASTROLIA1, Apr 21, 2010.

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  1. DENNISMASTROLIA1

    DENNISMASTROLIA1 Active Member

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    I was attempting to re load with RIO hulls today on a Spolar reloading press.No luck--Was using Rem. 209 primers with a 1oz. wad--The primers would not seat well and some fell right out of the hull.Am I doing something wrong? Or are these hulls not worth the reloading process? Thanks--Dennis.
     
  2. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    There are people who reload them but they are not worth the effort in my mind:<UL><LI>The plastic base wads are not secure and will move up and down in the hull.

    <LI>The primer issue you encountered comes from the fact that the Rio primer is metric and as such is larger than the US 209 primers by at least .005". Fiocchis are the only other primer that will stay in the pocket and they are several thousandths of an inch smaller than the Rios.

    <LI>The inside diameter of the hull is really too big for any other wad except the newest CB Federal 12S3 clones although, again, some people use other wads and claim success.

    <LI>The internal capacity of the hull is big; because of that the powder charges develop low pressures and blooper are not uncommon.</UL>

    MK
     
  3. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Do a search for "Rio" and you'll find a couple of previous threads on this topic. One includes photos of hulls with migrated basewads.

    I echo Unknown1's opinion.

    Ed
     
  4. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Dennis, You need to use a Nobel Sport or Rio primer (Euro type) in those hulls. As mentioned above you need a reloader that reseats the primer from the inside of the hull like a Mec reloader does to make sure the base wad is back down and seated properly (not sure about your spolar). They are only good for a load or two anyway. Now last thing is if you can afford a spolar to reload on, go out and spent 4 cents apiece and buy some hulls worth reloading !!! Get some STS's and go. Why people try to save a few pennies when they stuff dollars into the hulls is beyond me. If you buy a hull for 4 cents and load it 8 times (should be no problem) Thats pretty inexpensive over the life of the hull. Good Luck and Break-em all. Jeff
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Loading EuroTrash hulls on a Spolar? Sick I tell you, absolutely Sick! Feed that press something worthy of it's stature! :)

    Junk hulls. I wouldn't load them and don't shoot them as new either. Lot's of people seem to get away with loading them, but I'd rather use my hard earned components on better hulls. Basewad migrations are VERY common. There are people that won't load Winchester AA hulls because of the "elusive" base wad issues (Never saw one). Those same people have no problem loading these Eurotrash hulls that continue to have loose basewads. Stay away from all of the UEE offerings like Kemen, Rio, Wolf, Mirage, etc. I have no faith in the company, since they weren't at all concerned about it and it seems to remain uncorrected.

    Didn't you ask about these hulls before? You didn't get enough information to figure out what you've found out already? They are not worth loading and require Eurotrash sized primers if you try. Throw them away and get some better hulls and stop wasting your time trying to make these things work. Rio and Nobel Sport primers are the ones that seem to fit. There are others, but many are not regularly available in this country.
     
  6. DENNISMASTROLIA1

    DENNISMASTROLIA1 Active Member

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    Thanks for all of the replies.I was testing the reloading on a Spolar that belongs to a friend. I have a P.W. I have decided after all the responses to throw these hulls away.It's just not worth the effort or the fear factor.I did indeed post here previously regarding these hulls.You guys are perceptive.
    Thank you for all the good info/Dennis.
     
  7. RunGunIPSC

    RunGunIPSC TS Member

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    There is a very complete article on reloading the Rio in the April 2010 Shotgun Sports magazine. It recommends the Rio primer & sometimes the Fio 616.
    It uses ONLY Helarco wads. Try accessing this artice on line.
    I have loaded this hull in the past years but not lately & I suspect it has changed. I used the Fio 616 & Federal S-3,SO & Ballistic Products wads. I had no problems,but only reloaded once & discarded. I now stay with Gold Metal,AA,STS hulls. I find the new aftermarket,second price tier hulls hard to reload & not worth the effort or $$$. And this inc the Club & Estate. Pay your price & enjoy good patterns. If you can afford to blow $6-7-8 or more into the air in 15-20 minutes,you can spend a bit more for the best reloads. I have been reloading shotgun for 48 years.
    Tom
     
  8. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    I have reloaded this hulls quite successfully for a number of years. Went through the learning curve because when I started there was little if any data. You are lucky as there is a lot of data out there now and you can reload these with little if any problems. I do load on a Mec and believe that you will have problems if you load on a Spolar or similar machine.

    Tom
     
  9. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    Dennis,

    Like the others said, Noble sport 209, Rio 209 will stay in the Rio hull, Fiocchis will also, but I don't think they are nearly as tight. A 12S3 or 12S0 or claybuster copy of said wad will work pretty good. The hulls are not very stiff and cold weather really seems to affect their sound and powder burn. A claybuster 6100 series wad works pretty well too.

    I personally would not reload them except for a cheap one time throw away hull at sporting clays. I use them mainly out of a pump gun or semi-auto. I reload them on a PW and it is a good work out to push the lever back to seat the hull in the die.

    John E.
     
  10. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Luvs2shoot

    With the possibility of a basewad migration, why would you ever consider shooting these hulls in a Pump or Auto? At least with a break open, you could take a quick look to see if the barrel is clear. Doing that with a pump or auto would likely not sit well with the rest of the squad, due to the maneuvering you would need to do to see down the barrel from the wrong end, or using a mirror from the back end.
     
  11. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Quack, I have asked why anyone would even bother with those hulls in ANY gun. The few dollars saved by scrounging those hulls or even buying them as new shells is a drop in the bucket compared to repairing or replacing a gun. And that doesn't even take any potential bodily injury into consideration.

    I know, there is no documentation showing that guns have been blown up by using these hulls. But do you really want yours to be the first? There's a risk associated with using them; that should be enough to deter any intelligent person.

    Ed
     
  12. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Ed,

    I don't recommend loading these hulls at all, but why someone would use them for a pump or auto is beyond me. I am one of those people that would load whatever hulls I can get, provided there are no additional safety risks involved. These UEE Hulls have consistently had basewad migrations over the past few years, or more. It's a no-brainer for me. I'll load something else that is proven to stay in one piece. What I found troubling was the lack of concern that the factory rep exhibited when I contacted them about this.
     
  13. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    Ed and Quack,

    I appreciate your concern. However, I have reloaded thousands of the the Rios with no problems yet. As to base wad migration, it is of little concern to me when you load with a Mec or any loader that presses the hull down on the base wad in the primer seating process. Granted, I load with a PW and with it there is the potential for the basewad to be pushed up during primer seating. I have witnessed some minor movement with the basewads, however, I have never found one that did not have the primer seated a majority of the way into the basewad. Further, I have tried pushing the base wad out of a Rio with no success.

    Therefore from a physics and common sense standpoint, if no powder or propellant gets behind or underneath the base wad and the primer seats in at least some portion of the basewad, how would the base wad leave the hull when there is no pressure built up behind it. The basewad should blow backward to the base of the hull when it goes off.

    As for the basewad ever making it out of the hull, I have doubts as to whether that could actually happen. I am not a proponent of reloading Rios or any hull with a basewad including AA HS more than once, and I know that one piece hulls such as Remingtons, old AAs or Gold Medals eliminate any fears of basewad issues since they have none. However, I have seen a Remington STS and Federal paper hulls completely separate form the brass. But as you can imagine the separated portion of the hull never moved forward of the forcing cone, in the chamber. Many people reload the Federal top gun or wal-mart specials 2 and 3 times at my home gun club, and they have had no issues with basewad migration even though it may be theoretically possible. The whole basewad migration issue seems to be much ado about nothing. My opinion is that when people have barrel's bulge or blow up there is a wad or other obstruction issue other than the basewad.

    Again, thank you for your concern, but I think I will be okay, and it is certainly everyone's decision as to what they want to reload and what they feel comfortable reloading, and I think Dennis has decided against reloading Rios, which is perfectly fine.

    John

    How many people actually look down their barrel or blow down it to make sure smoke comes out after each shot? Would it really make much of difference if Rio reloads are shot in an O/U, SxS, Pump or Semi-Auto? Maybe a few times, but certainly not all of the time.
     
  14. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    John.... Could have not said it better. This issue is much ado about nothing. These hulls are great to load once and throw away just like the new multi piece AA's. If you believe Quack Shot your receiver just cracked and will blow up just because your gun heard you talking about reloading Rio's and gun clubs grounds are littered with blown base wads. Use the correct components and load once and there is no problems.

    Tom
     
  15. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    TBaber

    Again, you have put words in my mouth. I'll ask you again, just where did I claim that I have seen a gun damaged, blown up, or have seen basewads exit a hull. I've been honest about the issue. Now put up or shut up.

    Every time I hear someone say a basewad migration issue isn't anything to worry about, I keep hearing my friend's Mom say, "Stupid Is As Stupid Does". We used to think she was a witch, since within a matter of minutes, someone would be getting stiches or have a "Cast" signing session the next day. I now understand what it was she was saying.

    I'm a firm believer in safety and conservative practices when it comes to something that makes a loud "BOOM". I refuse to do stupid things unless I absolutely can't avoid them. I have a choice of what hulls I load AND I prefer not to load any that have known issues. By your own admissions, you know the hulls have issues with migrating basewads. I'll be there if you ever end up in a court of law due to their defective products doing you, OR a bystander, Harm. You have preliminary knowledge of a potential catstrophe, so it will be all on your shoulders if it does happen. I'm a little more concerned about the safety of fellow squad mates and other shooters. All it takes is one. Just ONE incident to really understand what I'm saying.

    I think I have heard that "One Time" thing before. I also heard something about an unplanned pregnancy a few months later. :)
     
  16. dhip

    dhip Active Member

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    don't want to stir the pot again,but being New to reloading I do take most info into considering how I reload.
    Quack shot has been helpful before on another thread about my loads.
    But,just to make sure I e-mailed Alliant about my Green Dot Loads in Gun clubs and WW Universals.
    18.3 grain green Dot,tgt12 wad,cheddite primer 1oz of shot.
    Alliants reply was they had No data on it,but,if I was getting good crimps it should be a Very NICE Load.
    Shot them the other night,and really liked the results.
    Just like all shells though,I check them individually for any defects before loading,yeah,it slows me down,but I also check powder drop every 10 shells,SAFETY FIRST.
    With that being said,I feel if you take the time,and are not rushing things,even these 2 pices hulls can be used.BUT,if you idea of reloading is mass production,even with the BETTER hulls,you could be asking for trouble.
    Sorry to ramble,I'm sure someone will find fault in my Logic

    Doug H.
     
  17. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people don't seem to know how a basewad can move upward in the hull when all that combustion pressure is above it, pushing down on it. I was one of those people until recently. As it turns out, that pressure bears against everything in the hull equally and some of it goes into the basewad's flash hole and under the basewad. When the ejecta clears the muzzle and the pressure above the basewad suddenly drops to zero or even a slight negative pressure or vacuum is developed, the basewad moves.

    Moving by itself isn't so bad but if one of those basewads gets out of a hull and lodges in a barrel, the results likely won't be pretty. Reloading those hulls one time may not be risky but we all know trapshooters who do anything to save a few pennies on the reloads they run through the $10,000 gun they haul around in their SUV or luxury car. They'll load whatever hull they're using until it looks ready for retirement and every reloading weakens the hull, possibly allowing the basewad to move more and more each time.

    I hope we never have any gun blowups, especially ones that can be avoided so easily. You know what everyone will say if one of those Eurotrash hulls causes a catastrophe - "He was shooting reloads." We don't need that kind of publicity in this anti-gun political environment.

    Ed
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Dennis send me the hulls, I load the w/Rio primer-19grs Promo-1 1/8th oz shot w/down range windjammer wad, on my Mec Hydraulic loader w/ 6 point crimp starter, the load like new, and shoot excellent.

    Have been loading them since they came out.



    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
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