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Reloading Hull Problems

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Calkidd, Oct 1, 2010.

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  1. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Below there are two pictures of some issues I have been running in to while reloading on my MEC 9000G.

    First off this is my recipe:

    18.5 gr Clays
    Claybuster Windjammer wad
    1 1/8 oz of 7.5 shot.
    Reloading once fired hulls


    View attachment 245085


    1. The split shell is a little confusing, out of 100 shells I had 3 split up the side. Maybe this was just coincidental due to a weak hull, but it almost appears as if there is just too much stuff being stuff in the hull.

    When I have weighed the shot I get less than 492 grains +/- a few pellets so I don't think I am putting too much shot. But even if there was just a little too much shot the wad should compress.

    2. The second photo the lip of the shell is folding or crushing. Out of 225 reloads I have about 25 of these that are produced. I messed with crimp depth, pre crimp and finishing, but I still continue to produce a few of these shells.

    I could use a little help with this one.


    [​IMG]
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    My guesses, and they are just guesses, are:
    1. Lengthwise splits occurred when the shell was last shot, not during reloading. Note the discoloration around the splits.
    2. Small dent near the crimp caused by the shell not being aligned with the final crimp station. That shell should shoot well

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought, but those are OLD shells - do you now how/where they have been stored?

    Plastic will decay under certain conditions (e.g., exposure to sun light), if these were left in a sunny place for a long time the shells on the top of the pile might display this type of failure...
     
  4. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Agree with other two that degradtion of hull is most likely for intial. Winchester has had bad runs of hulls that would enhance circumstances through periods of production.

    Last appears to be a crimp or final stage issue. Back off pressure asserted.
     
  5. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Those are the old 1-piece compression formed hulls.

    I was given 2, 33-gallon trash cans full of the same kind (once-fired, red and silver) that had been stored in a dry gun club basement (no heat or A/C) for years. They do the same thing: the sides split and the shoulders collapse. I'm sure their age and the way they were stored caused the condition. I load them on a P-W 900. I load them once and pitch them (unless they split... then I recycle them).

    MK
     
  6. Smithy47

    Smithy47 Member

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    I agree with the comments about the split hulls. I also have had the same problem with old AA's.

    The dent on your crimp is most probably caused on the last stage that puts a taper on the end of the finished shell. Your indexing plate is slightly out of alignment when this occurs. You can adjust your indexing plate position if you keep having this problem. The MEC owners guide has very good instructions on how to due this.

    Bob
     
  7. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    calkidd:

    As noted, your hulls are original compression formed (CF) Winchester AA's.
    These were replaced several years ago when Winchester introduced the new style AAHS hulls.

    Immediately prior to that change over, the old CF manufacturing dies were well worn. As a result, CF AA's produced in the last year of production or so, included a fair number that would split when the original factory load was shot. Many others wouldn't survive the first reload. Others OTOH, would go on and on like the Energizer Bunny.

    If your hulls were some of the last CF hulls made, the splits aren't a matter of deteriorating plastic. They were junk coming off the line.

    I've still have several thousand of them I bought for a penny each at Olin's gun club in East Alton back when.

    sissy
     
  8. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    I have never encountered splits like in the first photo. I have the same problem as the second photo when loading the old AA's. I have a PW with the shell holders and I attribute the crinkle in the crimp to the hull coming loose in the shell holders and not being properly aligned. That only happens with the old AA's, no other hull. No other hull comes lose in the shell holders. I think that is why PW stopped making the shell holders.

    pheasantmaster says too much pressure but I don't know, I have already backed completely off the taper and get factory-like crimps on the new AA's, no wrinkles. Simple solution, don't mess with the old AA's.
     
  9. birddog1964

    birddog1964 TS Member

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    calkidd,

    One other thing you might do after you adjust your shell carrier is to make sure the inside of station 5-6 dies are clean and not rough and if they are steel that they have no rust in them. Then I spray the inside of the dies with a shot of {one shot-case lube} It drys completely and will not affect powder or primers. You can even put a shot on the wad guide and the inside of the of the pre-crimp. I hope this helps.

    thanks
    lee
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for all of the replies, this answers a lot of my questions. Yes the hulls are old. I believe I bought these hulls back in 2003, but they have been in cardboard boxes in the garage. I recently got back in to the trap/reloading scene.

    Regarding the crushed lip, the indexing plate appears to be loose enough that when the machine is brought down the hulls line up. I have adjusted the indexing arm to the point that it brings the indexing plate just past the anti-reverse lock when it clicks into place. I know it is not the final stage due to the fact I have found the crushed lip during the crimping stage.

    However, I do have a full tub of the shinny read new AA hulls.
     
  11. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    P3AT:

    Final runs of 20 ga. CF AA's had splitting issues as well.

    sissy
     
  12. philk

    philk Member

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    I`ve been reloading old AA`s, most at least 18 to 20 years old, never saw a split problem until they were reloaded 8, 9, 10 plus times. I reload on a PW 2000 and I do get the wrinkled lip just like those about 1 or 2 per hundred, no idea why.
     
  13. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    I believe Pheasantmaster is correct on that last shell.

    I reload nothing but STS's and I had some come out like that. I readjusted the final final stage on my Mec and that got rid of the problem.

    I was going down a tad to much. I didn't have to back off much, just a tad..............(A tad is about a schoshie bit)

    Hauxfan!
     
  14. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    As Recoil sissy stated, some of the last CF AAs were junk! I remember some of the guys buy new shells and having split hulls when they opened the box.

    Back in those days, I would load a couple of target boxes full and let them set for a week before boxing them ... always had some that split just sitting there.
     
  15. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    I had batches of later CF Winchesters that did essentially the same thing when they got old. I believe it was the plastic that they used. I have some that are from the 1970s that still load fine and hold together well. I have some from more recent manufacture that have split the same way. Most of my remaining CF hulls are from the 70s and are still kicking. I have a lot of Remington RXP hulls, shells, and "New" primed shells that work just fine. The plastic in the affected hulls looks and feels different than the older ones that hold together. I believe that the plastic is the root of the issue.
     
  16. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    In the mid 90ties I bought 10 cases(500 count) of new WW shells every year and that would about handle my handicap shooting. I would then use them to reload for singles and doubles for the next year. The last year I shot WW about 85% split when fired.

    Ajax
     
  17. creek

    creek Member

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    I too use old AA's and have a bin full of hulls that I seperated out; they look, feel different. The plastic is almost fibris or papery feeling. Many of them got split after the first shot. I reload the ones not split once and toss.

    John
     
  18. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    I found my problem was my pre crimp. It was too far down buckling the shell. Backed it off and the problem was gone. Only a very few buckle.
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Recoil Sissy

    "Immediately prior to that change over, the old CF manufacturing dies were well worn. As a result, CF AA's produced in the last year of production or so, included a fair number that would split when the original factory load was shot."

    Sissy I am not attacking you or say you are not correct in this quote. I am however just a little curious as how you obtained this information. I am also curious as to how the "new" AA hulls are made. How they are different from CF hulls?

    I also do not totally understand one of the hulls in the photos. In the first photo there are two hulls that show splits in them. One of those hulls is pictured below. I have however enlarged a section of the hull and circled a small, what appears to be hole in the hull. This is just speculation but the discoloration on either side of the split says that the hole may have been in the hull at the time of the original firing.



    [​IMG]



    Just things that I see that I can't answer that I wished to point out.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    ivanhoe:

    Compression formed hulls consist of a single piece of plastic and the brass base. A grossly oversimplified explanation goes like this... plastic was heated until it was about the consistency of chewed bubble gun. A blob of hot plastic was placed into a 'cup' then mashed or compressed into the final hull shape by an appropriately shaped steel 'pin'.

    The new style AAHS are Reifenhauser type hulls. They consist of an extruded plastic tube, a separate plastic base wad, and the brass. AAHS tubes have straight walls. The exterior of the separate base wad matches the inside of the tube. The inside of the separate base wad is tapered like a wine glass.

    When the two parts are assembled, the internal shape and dimensions of an AAHS are designed to be nearly identical to those of a tapered CF AA. That's why reloading data appropriate for one is appropriate for the other.

    Many loaders prefer the CF because of three problems (real or perceived) with AAHS.

    1. The separate base wad is reported to sometimes migrate upon firing.

    2. The top edge of the base wad sometimes catches the bottom edge of wads and causes hulls to mash during the final crimp.

    3. Some folks believe AAHS hulls can't be reloaded as many times as CF hulls.

    I know some of what I know because I previously lived within rock throwing distance of Olin Corp's East Alton plant. Back in the day, I shot at Olin's range on Powder Mill Road (interesting street name, ehh?) and shot registered targets with a fair number of Olin employees. Local shooters like me obtained all sorts of information and answers about Olin simply by asking.

    For example (As pheasantmaster mentioned) Winchester had occasional quality issues with CF AA manufacturing. These were typically limited to a particular run of production or partial run. One such problem was reputed by employees to be the result of the coloring material added to the plastic.

    The split hull issue OTOH, was pretty common to CF AAs toward the end of final production. It evolved over time and got progressively worse.

    As for the defective CF AA hulls, they always split length wise. The worst splits ran the entire length from the brass to the end of the crimp. Other splits happened midway between the base and the crimp but didn't involve either end. Still other hulls failed at the crimp with the split extending part way down the side. Over time I saw about every kind of split you can imagine except one. Unlike some Federals and the old Activ hulls, I never saw an AA split around the circumference.

    Pin holes didn't seem to be part of the failure issue. I never saw a pin hole in a new or near new hull without an associated split. In my experience, pin holes were limited to the fold of a crimp and only after numberous reloads.

    Whether correct or not, the consistent explanation I always heard about the change from CF AA to AAHS was that Olin management elected to convert to AAHS rather than rebuild/refurbish the worn CF AA manufacturing equipment. My guess is that it is also cheaper to manufacture AAHS vs. CF AA hulls.

    sissy
     
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