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Release trigger went off

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by KelleyPLK, Jul 17, 2007.

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  1. KelleyPLK

    KelleyPLK TS Member

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    Recently at MICH ST SHOOT A fella raised his gun to shoulder didnt call for bird what so ever . Bird went out without call tryed to relieve trigger gun fired . really not at target . Just a mechanical mistake do to handling release trigger . Well Puller said shoot another target another fella says its lost bird was in air . Need clarified ? I was leadoff and said give him another target . 2 others said it lost bird . Whos right ?




    Pat Kelley
     
  2. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    "Bird went out without call" should tell the story. Shoot another one.

    Gne
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    The gun went off with a target in the air - that is considered firing at it, should be scored as lost even if he did not call for it.
     
  4. K-GUNS

    K-GUNS Member

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    If shot was fired ( even by mistake) while bird is in the air,the result must be scored.
    If you didn't call, lower your gun.If you gun went of by mistake, your tuff luck.
    Sorry.
     
  5. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    A scored target is one that is called for! The shooter didn't call for the target. The malfunction happening at the same time is irrelevant. I believe that as long as the shooter not calling for the target is in total agreement, They get said target over!

    Btw, what tripped the machine to send a target?

    ec90t
     
  6. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    If an uncalled-for target was purposefully fired on and missed, would it be a lost bird?
     
  7. KelleyPLK

    KelleyPLK TS Member

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    Pat I was lead off that day , And Your aurguement is 1/2 right and 1/2 wrong !
    since we both know the gentleman didnt call for that target and really didnt shoot at it . He should had gotten the target over . Black and white It will be the next event we shoot .


    Pat Kelley
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Referee should have called no target. Before voice pullers, accidently releasing a target was an instant"no target" call. It would be really nice if scorers(can't call them referees any more) would know the rules and protocol.

    I have had scorers look at me with a blank stare when the target came out broken. More blank stares when he did not see a chip and another shooter(no one I knew) called it.

    This situation always exists to some degree. It behooves us to try and be helpful when a situation comes up but for cryin out loud, know the rule if you speak up.

    HM
     
  9. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    "Before voice pullers, accidently releasing a target was an instant"no target" call."

    Correct to a point - but if the target was fired at it had to be scored, even if the scorer had already called "no target".

    I guess you can get into what "firing at" the target means, but it seems to me this is a tough luck situation where it's a lost target. It may have even been discussed in the "House Rules" column before.

    EDIT: Dudley's post following this even takes away that argument, the rule is clear, it's lost.
     
  10. Terry Patterson

    Terry Patterson TS Member

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    Unless it could be ruled a failure to fire (and it did fire, even if unintential) it is lost. The ATA rulebook page 31 E. No Target-

    6. When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung
    at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant,
    provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result
    must be scored.

    He did not call for the bird, it appeared, and his firearm discharged- LOST.
     
  11. Texas Trap Shooter

    Texas Trap Shooter Member

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    Pat Kelly,

    The following is a 'copy' from the 2007 ATA Rulebook - Section VII - Official Scoring, Section E - No Traget, bullet no. 6 (page 32):

    6. When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung
    at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant,
    provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result
    must be scored.

    I hope this gives you the information to make a proper call of "lost" target.

    Ron Schroer
    Sun City, TX
     
  12. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Maybe in this case, it would be safe to say the contestand didn't fire. Just that his gun went off accidentaly. Would that make a difference?
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    This gets down to was he trying to open the gun, was it on his shoulder, etc.

    I would need to be there, of course. But if the gun was not being aimed at the target I would want to rule no target.

    Call in the Supreme judge!

    Neeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiilllllll!!

    HM
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    It is clearly a lost target. And, if the shooter was lucky and broke the target with the unintentional shot, it would be a dead bird.

    trapshootin hippie- We are responsible for our guns, especially when they are loaded and in our hands. If the gun "went off all by itself" the firing of the gun remains the shooters responsibility.


    Pat Ireland
     
  15. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Texas Trap Shooter has it correct. The rule is very clear here. This is not one of those "gray area" rules. Target is in the air, the gun is fired, for whatever reason, target scored as it was shot, period. Any other determination, for any other reason, is wrong.....Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  16. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    Lead-off shooter says to the puller: "let's see one." While the target is in the air his gun accidentally discharges. Lost? What if the puller announced he was throwing a target to view, and the lead-off shooter accidentally discharged his gun? Lost? No target? Does the puller have to say "no target" BEFORE the shot is fired, or can he say it was "no target" after the fact.
    Like any rule or law, sometimes common sense has to prevail. How about this hypothetical situation:
    Shooter A is 99 straight. On his last target he fires and misses. His good buddy Shooter B sees what happened, and quickly fires his gun before the target hits the ground. The rules say if two shooters fire at the same target, it is a "no target." Does shooter A get another shot at his 100 straight?
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I think some are being a little legalistic here without making any attempt to interpret the intent of the rule. I would hope that all of us could agree that the intent of the rule is to require the scoring of a shot fired in an attempt to break the target regardless of the audible level of a call or the timing of the shot in relation to the call. It is obviously to prevent a contestant from claiming a no call or a late pull after they have shot and missed a target.

    In this case, it seems that the contestant made no attempt to shoot at the target. If you read all of Section Vll, it repeatedly makes references to "firing at" or "firing upon" a target in determining lost or dead. There are also references to just "firing" but read in context, they always refer to firing in an attempt to break the target.

    In this case, if the scorer determined that the discharge of the gun was an "unintentional discharge" rather than an actual attempt to break the target, equity would demand that the contestant be given another target and, consequently, a fair opportunity to shoot "at" or "upon" a full 25 targets in the sub event.

    And for you legalistic types that want to literally interpret every rule, the ruling should have been the sole descretion of the scorekeeper without "help" from the rest of the squad. That's the way the Rules read, but in pursuit of fairness, that is not the way we shoot, is it? In this case, fairness would say if the guy didn't call for a target and didn't shoot to break a target that happened to be in the air concurrent with his unitentional discharge, give him another target.
     
  18. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Gee Pat,

    So you only follow the rules that you want to? The rules don't make any allowance for, in your opinion, poorly trained or inexperienced scorers. If you are going to follow the "Letter of the Law", keep you mouth shut on the line and file your protest later.
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Lost target. No other call is possible.

    Neil
     
  20. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    dickgtax......Lost target, period! Why would the squad leader have his gun in a position to engage the trigger if he is just looking at a target? The rules state that if a target is in the air, for ANY reason, and the gun fires, for ANY reason, the target is scored as shot. That rule is pretty clear, isn't it?

    JBrooks.... If Pat didn't protest the "do-over" I would have if I were there. We should ALL follow the rules as best we can. That's why they were written. In my opinion, the rules are being bent, or broken, more and more these days. Is it due to mis-interpetation of the rule, or is it being done just because it "seems" fairer to do it another way? Regardless of the reason, the rules are the rules and that should be the way the game should be shot. Where does it say in the rule book that we are allowed to change, or relax a rule, to fit the circumstances as we see fit? We should all quit trying to be a "good old boy" to your friends and squadmates and try being right, according to the rules.....Just my opinion....Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
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