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Red Dot vs. Clays

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by WNCRob, Mar 25, 2008.

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  1. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    I'm fairly new to reloading shotgun shells...mostly used for trapshooting...all Remington components so far. My initial efforts have been with Clays, mostly 1180-1220 FPS 1 0z # 8 and # 8.5 for singles & handicap...I'm shooting @ 21.5 yd line. Seems that there is a price benefit for using Red Dot...are there other benefits as well? I suspect that this is a matter of individual preference, but is there any empirical difference between Clays and Red Dot...particularly if I increase my H'cap yardage and start loading higher velocity rounds or go to 1 1/8 oz rounds? Remington recommends Clays in its lighter loads (1150 fps), but tends to not recommend it for the slightly heavier loads, preferihng Red Dot and some others. I'd appreciate comments from those who have used both Clays and Red Dot.

    Many thanks.

    WNCRob
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Both are excellent powders. Some will claim, without quantitative evidence, that Clays is cleaner burning. For me, the fact that Red Dot is made in the USA and Clays is imported is an important factor. This is not important to some others.

    For long yardage handicap loads, I prefer Green Dot over both Clays and Red Dot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. chatbrat

    chatbrat TS Member

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    RED Dot, Clays & Claydot are very close to each other as far as burn rates are concerned---the max speed you see in the Hodgdon book is 1200 FPS/ with 11/8 oz loads---the real difference between Red Dot & CLays & Clay Dot is cleanliness--- I can get Clay Dot a little cheaper than Red Dot---If you clean your gun very often ---shoot Promo---it performs the same as Red Dot--- I clean my gun once a month if it needs it or not----( some may think thats a sacrilege)---Phil
     
  4. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    I prefer e3 over Red Dot and Clays for 7/8 oz, 1 oz, and 1150 fps 1 1/8 oz loads. If I'm looking for 1200 fps 1 1/8 oz loads I grab Green Dot or WST. 1250 fps 1 1/8 oz loads, I use Winchester Super Handicap powder.

    ~Michael
     
  5. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    I've found Clays to be very clean. They don't recommend it for Handicap. I use International for that. Dave T.
     
  6. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    In this neck of the woods (washington state), e3 is quite expensive compared to clays. I don't know about red dot. For long distance handicap, I'll follow Pat's lead and switch from clays to green dot, but that will be awhile yet - I'm still on the 20yd line.

    Pat, at what yardage does green dot become more effective?

    Mike
     
  7. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    First...thanks for your comments. I guess my issue is that while Red Dot is generally comparable to Clays in the moderate loads, it seems that Red Dot is perhaps more flexible in the slightly hotter/heavier loads, thus pemitting me to have one very effective powder for all uses, without compromises. I'm perfectly happy with Clays for my 16 yd. line loads, and pehaps for the shorter h'cap loads, but as I gain yardage, I expect that Clays may be less desireable, while Red Dot seems to be a factory-recommended powder for most loads except when we go beyond the 3 dram-equivalent loads. I've about used up my first 8lbs of Clays and need to reorder soon, so, I'm thinking of changing to Red Dot as my one powder for all applications for the forseeable future.

    Many thanks for everyone's advice.

    WNCrob
     
  8. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    With heavier 1 1/8 oz loads, I don't see where Red Dot is more flexible than Clays. Looking at recipes on Alliant's and Hodgdon's websites, it looks like both powders are limited to 1200 fps 1 1/8 oz loads. Only difference on paper is that loads with Clays are a little bit higher pressure.

    ~Michael
     
  9. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I shoot the same as Pat Ireland. Clays at the 16 and Green Dot at the 27.
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Actually, now I am loading American Select for singles and doubles and Green Dot for handicap. I will soon change to Red Dot for singles only because I got 32 pounds of Red Dot at an excellent price.

    shot410ga- I absolutely am forbidden to use Clays powder. My friends at the Alliant plant have told me this very firmly.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    Interesting.

    My friends at Hodgdon do not place the same requirements on me. They're just happy I use their products! (just kidding, you know...)

    There must be "something" about Clays that Alliant liked, since they worked so hard to copy it.

    I use Titegroup (made in the USA) for handicap.

    Tim
     
  12. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    700X the best end of story!, Jeff
     
  13. oz

    oz Active Member

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    the old timers like red dot. didn't have clays when they were young. oz
     
  14. CharlesR1100

    CharlesR1100 TS Member

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    Since I ran an 1100, I wanted the cleanest power I could find. Clays appeared to shot cleaner. Also was a tad cheaper, but not always. Both are long time performers with Red Dot perhaps the oldest of all available powders. Someone will know for sure.

    If everything else was even, I would go with the cleanest burning powder. I think it is Clays.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Tim- Yes, Alliant does like Clays, and Clays is good powder. In fact, it was a couple of Alliant chemists who went out to lunch years ago that told the group from Australia how to formulate Clays. Next, the Australian visitors spent two days at the plant with the production manager who told them how to manufacture the powder. Now, visitors are welcomed at the Alliant plant, but chemical/production information is no longer given out freely.

    Jeff- Why is 700X the best? Is its pressure curve more consistent? Is its flash point lower? How does 700X pressure curve look at different temperatures. The most variable component of powder is the cellulose. What is the source of cellulose for 700X. Are you sure it is the best or is it just the powder you use so you assume you have selected the best?

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Pat , Just stirring the pot , but having tried about every powder out there 700X works for me and has not given me problems with any loads from 1oz 1000 fps in my 800 bore to 1 1/8 hot stuff and works great in my gas guns as well,with the versatility its hard to beat. I keep one powder and one wad ,TGT-12 for all loads. I can't speak for 7/8oz because I would use a 20ga. Jeff
     
  17. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    I continue to be amused at the comments re Promo and the gun cleaning problems claimed with it. I have probably used 14 or 15 8lb'ers through my 1100's in all trap events and while I do keep a tidy doubles receiver, I find very little powder residue in the action or barrel. I have never had a malfunction due to dirty powder and darned few from mechanical gremlins (uuh, I have seen a lot of Perazzi's break leaf springs, especially in doubles events, and yes, I own one of those as well). Several years ago I changed from Clays to Promo primarily for the price, but also because with Clays I had an occasional fired hull in the shell catcher with flame still visible upon ejection. That is somewhat disconcerting and have yet to experience that with Promo. Yes, I check bushing weights with each new container and often during the loading process and cannot say that I've seen anything really gross. I reduced the bushing one size with one lot, otherwise it's been ok. This is something I do with all powders anyway, and I hope others are doing the same.

    This is just my experience.

    Larry
     
  18. trap4u2

    trap4u2 Member

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    Alliant's Clay dot, Red Dot or Promo are all excellent Powders. I've used all three, for everything from 7/8's to 1 1/8 oz loads. I swithched to Clay Dot about a year ago, where I live Clay Dots purchase price is slightly higher than Promo and slightly less than Red Dot. I use 1 oz loads for singles and doubles and only load to 3 dram 1 1/8 equivalent for handicaps, at the 25 yard line I really don't require a load faster than 1200 feet per second. Actually both loads should be around the same speed, just different shot charges. Try Clay Dot as opposed to Clays it's made in America, and burns just as clean as Clays. IMHO. Joe Banach
     
  19. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    For me Clays meters better than Red Dot. So I use Clays for my 1 oz registered 16 yard and 1st shot doubles. Red Dot is only used for my 1 oz sporting clays for fun shells. I like Hodgdon International for my 1 1/8 oz 1200 f/s (3 dram equiv.)handicap load.

    Whenever trophies or money is involved my preferred ammo is factory Remington STS/Nitro.

    I too like IMR's 700-X but have problems getting it. Looking my through IMR's 2003 Guide, it is a powder that has Rem STS/Nitro hull published loads from 7/8 oz (24 gram) 1150-1335 f/s; to 1 1/8 oz 1095-1250 f/s. All with 3 or 4 different makes of primers and wads, unlike the Alliant's guide that often only has the primer that matches the hull maker or the wad of the hull maker with a different primer.

    Jason
     
  20. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    red dot vs clays???? I shoot both depending on avalibility. cost in my area 99.00 for 8lbs red or clays. as far as cleaner???? Red dot leaves more flaky stuff in barrel, when cleaning barrels are always filthy either powder. Unless you do some very intensive crony testing and ballistics blah blah blah. Then you will not really notice a difference. Use good load data load it up and shoot it.
     
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