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Red Dot versus American Select

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mrskeet410, Mar 8, 2009.

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  1. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    At Recobs, and maybe at other retailers, Red Dot and American Select are the same price. So why not use American Select?
     
  2. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    mrskeet410,

    I have a current thread red dot vs promo that you may want to look at, but I, too, have been considering American Select as it has some strong proponents. But, I suggest that you look at the Alliant reloading page and compare the performance of American Select with various primers...it is quite sensitive to which primer you use. In particular, look at the pressures of Winchester vs. Remington primers. There is a huge difference of over 1000 psi for comparable loads. And the 1145 fps load with Rem. primers only generates 7600 psi. I suspect that this is too low for consistent patterns, but I may be wrong. I was also thinking of changing to Fiocchi 616 primers, but am afraid that with American Select the pressures may be too high, and Alliant gives no data on the Fiocchi primer.

    WNCRob
     
  3. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    I loaded Fiocchi 616 primers for many years using American Select with no problems. I loaded 19.8-20 grs., in a Gold Medal hull, 12S3 wad and 1-1/8 oz. of shot for just over 1200fps on the chrono. I would still be using that recipe but I can't find Fiocchi's here in Fl. Alliant said to use the same recipes with Fiocchi's as with Federal 209A. JRM
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    More hundreds have been fired in trap using Red Dot than any other powder. HMB
     
  5. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I use a lot of American Select. I like it for bunker loads and handicap loads. I like it for 1oz loads, but not as much as e3.

    If you look at the Lyman 5th edition shotshell data, you'll find it is not anywhere near as primer sensitive as the Alliant reloading data suggests. In fact, I came to the conclusion years ago, that Alliant must have used a bad lot of Remington primers. I always get more velocity the the Alliant site says I should.
     
  6. abiezer

    abiezer Guest

    AA hull,WAA12 and win209 to reach 1200fps takes 19.5grs Amer.Select,
    and 18grs Red Dot.You'll get 3110 (12.5 flats) loads out of #8lbs of red dot,you'll get 2870(11.5 flats)loads from the Amer Select.
    So 8lbs of Red dot will give you a whole flat more of loads for the same price.
    Although, the Amer.Select may not deform shot as much (hypothetical) being a slower burn, and is most likely cleaner than red dot.
    But you have to factor in how many grs per load into the equation,or your not comparing apples with apples.
     
  7. Gavin

    Gavin Active Member

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    mrskeet410, during the summer of 1997 I went through all of the reloading manuals I could find looking for the softest recoiling and cleanest burning powder. I reloaded with Royal Scott D, Alliant and all of the major powder manfs. From the reloading tables the Amer Sel had the lowest pressure and from shooting the Amer Sel was the cleanest burning. I've used Amer Sel since. I shoot 1oz of #8 at 1145 FPS with a Win 209 primer in an AA hull with a Green Duster wad. Hope this helps.

    Gavin
     
  8. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    In addition to the comments already made, I have found it sensitive to light loads and it may not generate enough pressure. If you plan on using it with heaver loads at faster volatiles it's great. Bruce
     
  9. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

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    17.3gr of E3 works great for my 7/8oz loads w/A-A hulls, 1oz loads w/GC hulls, and 1 1/8oz loads w/any Rem hull. Always consistant, and is very clean (for those who have cleanliness issues), and doesn't really care which primer sets it off. For me though, I'll take Nitro100 anyday! 16gr does it all!

    AndyH
     
  10. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    My question is why use American Select? I wasn't aware there was a need for another shotgun powder with a burn rate between Red Dot and Green Dot. (And with e3 and Promo, I wonder why Red Dot is still around...)

    ~Michael
     
  11. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Slick
    Red Dot has a long and rich history. I know someone who insists on using Red Dot instead of Promo even though both powders use the same data and Promo is $30-40 less per jug. Go figure.
    Don Verna
     
  12. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    WNCRob - Yes, I read that thread regairding Red Dot verus Promo. And that thread led to my initial question. A post at your thread that asserted Promo was a mix of Red Dot and American Select led to me checking their prices. It turns out they are the same price. Which prompted a thought similar to Slick 13, i.e. why Red Dot and American Select. My impression was that Amercian Select was a prmium powder....cleaner, lower pressure, etc. So why not use premium powder for Red Dot prices? But that was my initial impression. Maybe it's wrong.
     
  13. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Ok.. I let everyone say their part.. First.. Promo is American Select with adjusted burn rate.. That came from the factory.. Second.. American Select has a slower burning rate than Red Dot.. So.. it handles the 1 1/8oz over 1200 fps loads much better than Red Dot without getting into high pressures.. Until they cleaned up Green Dot..many shooters shyed away from it.. So.. they designed a powder in the middle.. creating a product to fill a very specific gap.. while doing everything the 2 others did.. Then.. just the name... AMERICAN Select.. was appealing to American shooters.. and..becauase it is slower than Red Dot/Promo..many shooters consider it a softer shooting powder.. When you understand burn and pressure rates..the powder is a stand alone.. To the rest.. its a mid way.. Useful in any event.. All Good.. Mike
     
  14. abiezer

    abiezer Guest

    Promo is NOT American Select with an adjusted burn rate.
    Not according to Ben Ammonette.
    ATK produces powders for many commercial loadings in very large quantities,
    they make enough to fill certain orders,there is left over of these OEM products,
    be it for ATK's own Estate/federal brands,remington,winchester,or any other manufacturer's contract.
    They then use some process (unbeknownst to me,have to talk to ATK's chemists)to blend these overruns to be ballistically identical to red dot.
    I talked to Ben at length about what Promo was,and why it was cheaper.
    They just dispose of this excess,or blend it and pass the savings on to the reloading consumer,they chose the latter,thank you ATK.
    .
    .
    .
    Why would American Select with an adjusted burn be cheaper?
     
  15. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    PerrazziBigBore...

    So, if Promo is American Select with an adjustment to the formula to change the burn rate, can buyers expect to have the significant weight-to-volume variation in American Select that so many Promo users have commented upon?
    And I still find the 1000+ psi variation in comparable loads when using Rem 209's vs. WW 209's to be unusual.

    WNCRob
     
  16. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    When Promo first came out is was a blend of OEM Red Dot and OEM American Select. I called to ask. I was also told the "formula" might vary from lot to lot, because the whole idea was to use up end lots on non-canister grade powders. The only given was the final blend would burn at Red Dot speeds.

    WNCRob, the powders we buy at retail are from so called "canister grade" lots. To be deemed suitable for resale to reloaders, that lot of powder must must be consistent enough to fit within the standard window of 25fps and 2500psi. There is also a density standard, but it is also loose. Even though these are pretty big ranges, The norm is more consistent. I've found Amer Sel to be more consistent from lot to lot then Red Dot.

    If you look at the data in Lyman's 5th edition of shotshell reloading data you will find much more reasonable variations for different primers and Am Sel. I take Alliant's data for Am Sel and Rem STS209 primers with a grain of salt. Why, because my chrono data suggests that substituting an STS209 primer for the W209 in the published load I use for handicap only lowers velocity by 9fps. Judging by Alliant's published data, I should have had to increase the powder charge by 0.5gr to match velocities. Lyman's data also shows the pressures to be almost the same.
     
  17. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    I understand Red Dot's history, still amazes me it's following when there are cheaper (Promo) and better (e3) products from the same company that fill the same niche. I keep a lb of Red Dot around only because my Super X2 needs a little more pressure with light (1200 fps) 7/8 oz loads to cycle. Pressures are just low enough with that load with e3, that it won't always reliably cycle. That is not a problem in my 391. ;-)

    ~Michael
     
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