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Red Dot, Green Dot, which Dot??

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Capt. Morgan, Nov 29, 2007.

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  1. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    After my experience with trying to build a light handicap load around Clay Dot powder, I think I'm going to have to work with an other powder. I'm aiming for a velocity in the low 12s. I have about 4000 Winchester primers I'd like to use and a have more than enough once-fired Gun Clubs and AA hulls to work with. I may eventually want to switch to Rio primers.

    Now, all that having been said, I need to pick a powder. Red Dot and Promo offer possibilities but Green Dot offers lower pressures to start with. What kind of experiences have you had with any of these powders in a light handicap load.

    Morgan
     
  2. foghorn220

    foghorn220 Active Member

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    Ok I was told that Red Dot and promo is the same thing but as for me I like Red Dot ok got to admit never tried the promo since I still have red dot to use.

    ok I always heard that green dot makes a nice handicap load im sure Pat Ireland can give better info on that question.

    Ok I always used 19 grains of red dot even in a gold medal hull and it crushed everything that I was suppose to be on anyway.

    Ok in a AA Hull it would even be more faster since my old ribbed gold medeal federal hull's are a straight wall hull and im sure the gun club's are also so if you are looking for a light handicap load then it might be best to go with green dot but you would have to ask others on here about that because my red dot has been a proven performer in the past and also don't kick to me but I know there are a lot out there that want's the least amount of kick.









    Morgan

    Whatever you decide both of the red and green dot are powder's that other company's im sure respected because I have seen in the past other powders say it loads the same as the red or green dot.

    Ok me personaly I love the Red Dot but im sure the Green Dot is softer since it is a slower poder.

    Ok it might take more to get it out of the barrel to be the same speed of the Red Dot but im sure other's will know the true fact's.

    Ok im all Ear's.

    also the red and green dot perform's well in cold weather.

    Foggy
     
  3. JasonH

    JasonH TS Member

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    Morgan
    I have used all of those powders, and still load with promo. I use 18.4gr of promo, sts hulls, windjammer or claybuster wad, for singles. I also use 19.4-19.8gr of promo in same hull fashion for handicap. When I used green dot, I used it for handicap, at 20-21 gr. I used it with the old AA hull, claybuster wad, and winchester primer. I think you will like all of these loads. I did quit using green dot because of more grains per load, and am loading promo and titegroup all the time. Good luck......
     
  4. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    Claydot, Red Dot and Promo are all relative fast powders. If you want faster than 1200 f/s with 1 1/8 oz of shot you should use Green Dot. Also check out Hodgdon International.

    Remington's Light Handicap load is at 1200 f/s with 1 1/8 oz of shot. The Nitro 27 is at 1235 f/s with 1 1/8 oz of shot.

    Jason
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Red Dot for the lighter 16 and doubles loads. Green Dot for the heavier handicap loads.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. Wayne of PA

    Wayne of PA Member

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    Green Dot is an excellent powder for handicap at any yardage. I highly recommended it.

    Dale
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    My long time favorite 1 1/8oz load was STS or Gun Club hull, W209 primer, 19.1gr Green Dot, Fig-8 wad and 1 1/8oz West Coast Magnum shot for a nominal 1150fps. This is a relatively low pressure load and gets a little dirty in the cold.

    Bump the charge to 20gr for 1200fps, or 21.5gr for 1250, or go in-between. All data is from Alliant.

    It's not a "Dot" powder, but American Select is close to Green Dot in burning speed, light years cleaner, and considerably more consistent shot to shot and lot to lot. IMO it is the cat's meow for light target and light handicap loads. If you want more than 1200fps you'll have to drop to an STS209 primer, or go to green Dot.

    My current light target load is STS hull, W209 primer, 18.5gr Am Sel, Fig-8 wad, 1 1/8oz West Coast Magnum for about 1160 @9000psi. Bump to 20gr for 1200fps @10,200psi. The Am Sel light target load is significantly better than it's equal using Red Dot, and significantly cleaner than the Green Dot equivalent. It is more consistent over the chrono than any of them.
     
  8. breakingclays99

    breakingclays99 Member

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    Green Dot is one of my favorite powders for handicap loads.
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    18.5 Green Dot is a very good 1145 Fps hdcp load in AAs with AA wad or equivalent, 17.5 of Red Dot for singles with same components, I prefer the Green Dot for Hdcp.

    Another good Hdcp Powder is SOLO 1250, get recipe from their manual, it is a smooth load like the Green Dot.


    Dr.longshot
     
  10. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    >>>"After my experience with trying to build a light handicap load around Clay Dot powder, I think I'm going to have to work with an other powder. I'm aiming for a velocity in the low 12s."<<<

    Capt. Morgan,

    If you mean you want a 12 gauge recipe for 7/8 ounce or 1 ounce loads at somewhere around 1225 fps, there is no reason in the world why the Clay Dot powder wouldn't work well. Clay Dot is ballistically the same as Clays powder which is one of the best fast burning powders made.

    If you want to use a "Dot" powder, then switch to Red Dot which is much more suitable for what you want than is Green Dot. BUT, you need to be aware that Red Dot and Clays or Clay Dot have very similar burning characteristics. If Clay Dot wouldn't work for you, then Red Dot may not work either since they are very similar in burning characteristics.

    Why don't you tell us EXACTLY the recipe you used and what you found wrong with it. That way, we won't have to guess at the problem. Maybe you weren't using enough of the Clay Dot powder, or maybe you weren't making good reloads, or maybe it was just your shooting that needs improvement.
     
  11. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    <I>"Capt. Morgan,

    If you mean you want a 12 gauge recipe for 7/8 ounce or 1 ounce loads at somewhere around 1225 fps, there is no reason in the world why the Clay Dot powder wouldn't work well."</I>

    No, by "light" I mean a load with a velocity faster that the standard 1145 fps of a 1 1/8 oz load but not as fast as the 1280-or-so fps velocity of a Nitro 27.

    <I>"Clay Dot is ballistically the same as Clays powder which is one of the best fast burning powders made."</I>

    "Fast", I agree. "...ballistically the same...", no, and the tests I had done on the loads I assembled proved that to my satisfaction.

    <I>"If you want to use a "Dot" powder, then switch to Red Dot which is much more suitable for what you want than is Green Dot. BUT, you need to be aware that Red Dot and Clays or Clay Dot have very similar burning characteristics. If Clay Dot wouldn't work for you, then Red Dot may not work either since they are very similar in burning characteristics."</I>

    "Similar" is not "identical" and if you look closely at the reloading data for identical components using both Clays and Red Dot you'll see that Red Dot is reported to produce a chamber pressure as much as 1000 psi lower than Clays. That alone would suit my purpose.

    <I>"Why don't you tell us EXACTLY the recipe you used and what you found wrong with it. That way, we won't have to guess at the problem. Maybe you weren't using enough of the Clay Dot powder, or maybe you weren't making good reloads, or maybe it was just your shooting that needs improvement."</i>

    Please read this thread, which may still be on the first page of the forum:

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/sthread.cfm?threadid=140029&messages=16

    It contains all the information you just asked for in the report of the data test I had carried out by an independent company. If you know anything about the SAMMI standards and reloading, you'll be able to see what was wrong. It will answer your questions and avoid your having to make any more rude, uninformed allegations.

    Morgan
     
  12. sammie

    sammie TS Member

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    Here is a chart of powder burn rates that is handy to have for you reloaders. Consider it an early Christmas present. sam


    http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm
     
  13. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Thanks for the chart, Sammie, but I have at least 8 versions of that, one of which lists Clays as high as 4th and another that lists Green Dot down around 43rd. I take them all with a grain of salt.

    I'm really more interested in the pressures the powders generate at the velocity I want to achieve and of the easily available powders, it seems that Green Dot will give me what I want, at least for now. I will have to do some tweaking when it's time to switch to Rio primers from Winchester, but at the rate I use handicap shells, that won't be for a while.

    Morgan
     
  14. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    Morgan,

    Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. I was just trying to answer your question. Personally, I don't usually think of 1 1/8 ounce loads that are over 1200 fps as being "light" as you described it. That's why I asked for your exact recipe.

    Also, if you have all this information on pressures, powder burning rates, velocities, etc, then why are you asking us for an answer? It seems you could figure it out for yourself. In fact, based on you last post, it seems that you already have.
     
  15. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    <I>"Also, if you have all this information on pressures, powder burning rates, velocities, etc, then why are you asking us for an answer? It seems you could figure it out for yourself. In fact, based on you last post, it seems that you already have."</I>

    How do you think I got all this information on pressures etc? By asking the people who knew more about it than I did. I've never used Green Dot. I don't know how bulky it is or if it has any idiosyncrasies when used under certain conditions or with certain other components. That's why I asked the people who have.

    Morgan
     
  16. Robb

    Robb Member

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    Capt. Have you considered PB? Slow burner but clean.
     
  17. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    No Dot!.......it's CLAYS baby....CLAYS!
     
  18. skarloey

    skarloey TS Member

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    Just my experience - I am not a big dog or an expert like Pat, zzt or Neil.

    I get very good results loading Red Dot with Winchester components at 1145fps. By "very good" I mean powdered targets from the 23 yard line with my 1100 when I point it right. Choke tube doesn't seem to make much difference in scores so I use the long handicap tube (0.041) because I hear that's what Leo says to do. Recoil is not bad at all. After 300 or so rounds the gun is remarkably clean. Maybe not as clean as Am Select but still pretty doggone clean. I may try Windjammer wads since zzt says they're good. I am quite happy with Red Dot in this load and will continue to use it.
     
  19. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Green Dot will get you 1200 fps with reasonable pressures. If you need to go a bit more, try Unique or Universal Clays. They are my standards for 1250 fps 1 1/8 ounce loads. In the Gun Club hulls, try about 20 grains of Green Dot with 1 1/8 ounce of hard shot, winchester Primer, Winchester WAA12 Wad or Remington Fig8. The Downrange Figure 8 clones look excellent as do the TGT12 clones. I'll be trying them next. Double check the data, but you should be in the ball park with Green Dot. I'm not sure how the Rio primers would affect the loads, but I'm sure the pressures will be higher. It appears that the Rio primer is a very hot one. The limited data available shows some pretty high presures when compared to other primers.
     
  20. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    "Green Dot will get you 1200 fps with reasonable pressures....I'm not sure how the Rio primers would affect the loads, but I'm sure the pressures will be higher."

    I've been looking at the data Alliant publishes and I intend to try the 1200 fps STS/Winchester load and one of the AA loads.

    I'm sure the Rio primers will have an effect on the pressures. I'll have to have the load tested with Rio primers before I make the switch away from Winchesters.

    I will be getting some Clay Dot/Rio data over the next month or so. It will be limited but I'll publish what I get.

    Morgan
     
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