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Recoil Question/Neil Winston

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Oct 1, 2008.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- On another thread you mentioned that you believe your top barrel gives you less recoil (felt recoil) than your bottom barrel. I do not doubt your observation, but my mind just can't come up with a model to explain this. Can you help?

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No I can't. But in doubles it's clear the the first barrel - in my case the lower - is the greater kicker. I've only done about a third of the required tests. As was suggested here:

    1. What happens if I shoot the same shells in both. The result: the lower (first) kicks more.

    Yet to do:

    2. Switch triggers to shoot the top first to see if it's just a "second-shot" effect unrelated to top/bottom.

    3. Put in one of those Perazzi externally-selectable triggers so a "blinded" (not knowing the setting) subject can do the sort of same/different test which has so far generally shown that people are not much good at recoil tests. For example, it's impossible to tell whether two consecutive shells with Red Dot have the same powder charge or a grain more or a grain less. Note that I'm not (yet) asking whether which one is more, but rather simply if they differ.

    So, in the absence of these required tests, Pat, I'll restrict my present findings to "when shooting doubles" rather than (yet) "when shooting."

    Still - when I shot K-80 unsingles, which I did for a number of years, I never thought they kicked less than any of the over-single Perazzis or Berettas which both preceeded and followed them.

    Neil
     
  3. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    From previous postings on this forum it had been my recollection that the lower barrel is percieved to be the barrel that gives less felt recoil. Thus all the un-singles that have hit the market over the last few years. Not owning or ever shot an unsingle I have no experience or opinion. Mr. Winston's opinions are at the very least interesting. Can't wait to hear more!

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  4. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    It's always been suggested to me to place the recoil pad against your nose and forehead. Highly sensitive to small variations in recoil!!

    ;-)

    JC
     
  5. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    That explains a lot, Jim.

    :)
     
  6. just_bob

    just_bob Member

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    Well there is a finite amount of recoil energy here.
    So if more of it is diverted to barrel rise than felt recoil should be less.
    That is if it doesn’t slap you in the cheek.
    Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

    Just_Bob
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Heck, Jerry, I don't even think that unsingles "let you see the target sooner" or ". . .better" and _everyone_ believes that as well. But I ask "Since the rib on an unsingle is bigger (and you can't see through steel, alloy, or Delrin) there's more opaque material in your field of vision, specifically in the neighborhood of the target - so how can you see _anything_ better?"

    Someone's going to say that the barrel is "down" or "out of the way" but the rib is there instead so what's the difference? I know you don't have an unsingle to try this with but next time you are at the club ask a friend to just use his or hers just to look out over the traphouse with. The compare that with a conventional gun. Your don't have to shoot anything, just keep in mind what you see. I don't think you will run out to buy an unsingle based on what you find out.

    Neil
     
  8. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    This one is easy, after being hammered by the first shot Neil is numb for the second shot.

    Always laugh about the talk of seeing the target better with this or that gun. I see the target as soon as it leaves the house, gun makes no difference.
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    From: MTA Tom
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    Date: Wed, Oct 01, 2008 - 09:35 AM ET
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    That explains a lot, Jim.

    :)

    I think I stepped into that one!!! lol
     
  10. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    While I am 100% positive there can be felt recoil differences between barrels, my 2000RS barrels all feel the same. The over barrel rises slightly more during recoil, that's it.

    I am one of the "better" crowd. It may be because I don't have a dominant eye and see the rib and bead plus the tip of the top barrel plus the entire side of the barrels when shooting my O/U. With the unsingle there is much less visual mass out there. It is less distracting, and I definitely pick the bird up sooner with the same hold. I have to hold lower to get the same effect with the O/U, and the move to target is necessarily greater. Also, on hard angles, the unsingle provides a clearer view. BTW, I am noticing this with my current flat shooting setup (12" high@40). When I was shooting 22"+ high, the barrel, bead or whatever was nowhere near the target, and was not a problem.
     
  11. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I have been shooting my high rib TMX for 21 years and this year I got the notion that maybe I miss a Handicap target because I am shooting off the end of the barrel instead of the rib. I bought a single barrel to fit my MX3 and it seems to work fine for Singles but the jury is still out if the lower rib makes any difference in Handicap. I tried a friend's high Delrin ribbed gun and I wanted to shoot off the barrel with his gun but maybe it was the lack of the Uni-Dot front bead that I am used to. The MX3 single barrel is over-bored and ported and seems to have a little less recoil than the TMX.
     
  12. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Ok ... send me your guns and shells that you want tested and I will take them all out to the range and get a compression compactronameter rigged up for the exact recoiling pressure of your gun and ammo for both the top and bottom barrel. I will graph and chart each shot along with using a superduper computer to crunch the data so that it is accurate and complete.

    When it is all said and done though it is up to the armpit/socket of the person shooting the gun along with if the gun properly fits or not as to the felt recoil of any weapon but ... well ... that aint the simple answer your looking for.

    Now to answer the question in full detail what does it really matter at all? If your going to use it as some sort of excuse just remember that winners find a way and the rest find excuses.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Vectors could explain a lot of my question if the forces were applied in two straight lines, but they are not. The line of the barrels is around 45 degrees (pistol grip) and the line of the rest of the stock is roughly parallel to the barrels. On a line diagram, I can't make vectors answer my question to Neil.

    Mr Newbius©- The question is important to me because I am curious about things.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    This is very painful to admit but I have to agree with Neil on the subject of unsingle vs. flat rib barrel. I believe there is no increase in visibility with the unsingle and may be even less. The primary advantage of the unsingle is simply adjustability of impact-not better target visibility. Get a top single to shoot where you're looking-not always easy-and you're ready to fly!!
     
  15. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    A Belgium Browning Superposed and the Citori are considered high receiver profile guns compared to the low profile P gun or 3200, K gun etc. I always thought the high profile guns produced more felt recoil.
     
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