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Reading the breaks? Xmas quiz!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr A C Jones, Dec 14, 2009.

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  1. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Well it's Christmas, so how about a little quiz?


    The video shows 23 clips of a clay pigeon breaking in slow motion (the play back speed is 1/10th real time). In each case, the shooter aimed to the left or right by approximately two clay pigeon widths. All you need to do is determine which side. I note there are a few threads where people allude to the quality of their breaks, so picking "left" or "right" should be easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.


    The videos didn't quite come out quite as I wanted. In some of them the shot cloud can be seen. However, this doesn't help identify the side of the target the shot cloud passes. Due to an optical illusion of the shot moving so quickly, it always appears to go to the left side of the target. I can tell you that approximately half went to the right hand side.


    So as not to influence other people please pm your answers and just leave a note in this thread that you have responded. Sometime around Christmas I'll give the real answers and a summary of submitted results (anonymously).


    Please pm a simple message in the format: A-L, B-R, C-U, etc where "U" is unknown where you can't make up your mind.


    I don't want to influence the responses so I'll not say too much more now, but the filming was quite revealing.


    Quality is a little blurry due to passing through different video converters and Google's playback seems pretty poor too. I'm open to video advice!


    Enjoy!


    Andrew.

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kmZ4jK_3eXg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kmZ4jK_3eXg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
     
  2. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Andrew.... It doesn't seem to be an effective comparison in determining which side the target is hit on if the choke in question is not a very tight choke. At the very least .032-.035". The target breaks, as shown, "appear" to be done with a more open choke. It is my understanding that most of us, when referring to being able to read a target, base our statements on shooting them with as tight a choke as possible. Perhaps I missed class on that day? Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  3. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Dan, The distance is ~21 yards; a cylinder choke gives about the same pattern spread as a tight choke at typical trap distances. That's why I chose the distance, choke, and shell I did.

    Having said that, I do seem to recall some people suggesting they could "read the breaks" at extended distances where the pattern would be much wider than the case in the video.

    I did do some tests with a full choke but because the camera picked out the dense shot cloud it rather spoiled things.

    Andrew.
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Dan, you may not have noticed that the distance cited in the videos is 21 yards. On page 195 of his book, John Brindle writes:"Skeet guns are usually patterned at 21 yards. American 12 and 20-gauge guns generally give 80 to 90 percent patterns in the 30 inch circle at this range."

    Thus the effect should be about the same - better in fact - as trapshooters get with their chokes at their ranges.

    Neil
     
  5. Bob_K

    Bob_K Well-Known Member

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    PM sent with my answers.
     
  6. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    I'm impressed with the quality of the hits from such an open choke at 100+ feet at least from the shooter.


    Eric
     
  7. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    I assume that the 21 yards used in the test was from the 21yd line and not the distance at which the target is broken. 21 yards to a patterning board is not the same as shooting from the 21yd line in trap with the target moving away from you. If 21yds is the breaking distance then disregard all of the above.

    Eric
     
  8. jack1122

    jack1122 TS Member

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    Mixer,

    21 yards is only 63 feet. A yard is only 3 feet.

    Jack
     
  9. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Eric, 21 yards is indeed the target distance/break distance.

    ss, the camera is close to the left of the shooter. As close as I dared without risking a trip over the tripod (actually, the camera did get knocked a few times anyway). The camera is off the line of the target by a few degrees. It looks more because the field of view is static.

    I can't believe a few degrees makes that much difference; to date it never stopped people from afar offering advice that the pattern was infront/behind the bird.

    Andrew.
     
  10. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Andrew, PM sent. Wayne
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Eric, the test on the you-tube link is

    "Shooting slightly to the left and right of a clay pigeon to show how placement of the shot pattern affects the way the clay pigeon breaks.

    Targets taken from stand 7 skeet, approximately over the centre peg. Camera positioned as close as possible to the left of the shooter.

    Playback speed is approximately 1/10th real time."

    so I think it's 21 yards.

    It seems to me too that this close range will considerably up the kinetic energy of each of these pellets, making it even easier to "read the breaks" since the ratio of "pellet-caused destruction" to "rotation-caused destruction" must be higher here than in trap. In other words, you are more clearly seeing pellets do their work.

    Neil
     
  12. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The presentation is flawed. Neil states, that at the range the target is shot at there is a 90 percent pattern within a 30 inch circle. Since the shooter is aiming 10 inches to the left or right of the clay bird, the target remains within the 30 inch cicle which contains 90 percent of the shot with an additional 5 inches to the outside. The result is alot of good hits. The hits that I consider readable are the ones where the outter edge of the pattern strikes the bird. HMB
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    But Howard, IC patterns at 21 yards are _like_ full choke patterns at 40, that is, they have the same kind of hot center and thin edges. A five inch deviation at 21 yards is a ten-inch deviation at 40 yards, and that's what people are talking about reading, isn't it? If you can only read one-pellet hits, then you certainly can't read any of them, since single pellets are approximately evenly scattered all around the pattern.

    Neil
     
  14. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    HMB, I can address the issues you raise, but as I wrote earlier, I would rather do this post quiz so as not to influence the results. What I'm trying to do is as close to a "blind" test as possible.

    In the meantime, you could put a "U" next to all the ones you think are too solid a hit to reveal much, and a "L" and "R" to the remainder.

    Andrew.
     
  15. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Sportshot, Full results around Christmas. I have to get some of this in:


    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zNbSoyxOABU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zNbSoyxOABU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


    Ideally, enough people will be good enough to respond so that results can be compared with one another as well as the true results.

    Incidentally, I didn't get your response in my inbox. (I'm hoping it's not because the inbox was full with only 12 items?)

    Andrew.
     
  16. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    I can't see the video. All I see above is a white box with a small insignia of some kind in the upper left corner. When I click on the You-tube link, I just get a black screen. There is no "Play" button to click on. What am I doing wrong?

    Easystreet
     
  17. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    I dunno, maybe it's the wrong season for reading the breaks. Maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but I'd swear that earlier discussions on "reading the breaks" produced a lot more respondents. Reminds a little bit of bird shooting; walk around with a stick and the woods are thick with birds, walk around with a shotgun, nothing.

    I wonder if a prize for the first 100% correct response would generate some more interest . . . .

    Easystreet, I'm not an expert with video and YouTube. I just checked it and it still works for me so I would have to point a finger at your computer set-up blocking Flash movie content.

    Andrew.
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    One more issue to deal with. The wad is clearly visable on each shot. Its placement is a pretty good indicater of where the shot was directed. This might influence the answers given. HMB
     
  19. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    HMB, Trust me on this one, the wad is a lousy indicator. Lousy in general, and estra lousy in this case because the zoom lens compresses the depth of field so it looks like the wad is close to the target when in fact it isn't.

    Thank you to those who have responded. It's interesting. Everyone was wrong on one particular target, which prompted me to check I didn't mislabel it. I didn't. The clearer native video picture show what is happening and I'll post this later. I'd appreciate some advice on how to show native QT/MOV files.

    Andrew.
     
  20. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    " Maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but I'd swear that earlier discussions on "reading the breaks" produced a lot more respondents. Reminds a little bit of bird shooting; walk around with a stick and the woods are thick with birds, walk around with a shotgun, nothing."

    Dr. Jones, OK I'll admit to one of the above and haven't responded. This is your challenge and mine is the following. Hands on in person at a trap club. Pick a shooter who is having problems. I will set his gun up by the breaks I view. Then at that point we can conclude if Iam worthy of this ability.
     
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