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Reading the Breaks, Ch. 6, shot from side (W&B)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jul 13, 2011.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    North Star Clay Target.com is hosting Chapter 6 in our video series about the way trap targets break and what that means for "reading" those breaks for directional information about where the main parts of the patterns were that led to those breaks. The subject of this chapter is breaks when the shooter is to the side of the flight of the target.


    To get much out of these videos you need a player which can stop, forward, and reverse, frame by frame. Quicktime or Windows media player do fine at this. If you don’t use such a program you are going to miss the whole story.

    Click the link above and enjoy the show!

    Neil Winston and Ron Baker

    If you had trouble parking and got to your seat a little late and missed the opening five acts, they are:

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=975894

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=978292

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=979075

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=257986&Messages=32#986062

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/sthread.cfm?threadid=258144&Messages=15
     
  2. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Still being driven a bit "right" but now "right" is a more forward angle. Prob same relationship as the incoming shot angle.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I see rotation as being responsible for the right hand chunks movement, not the pellet break. The clay is moving vertically so why wouldn't momentum carry pieces upwards, I believe it does. The shot cloud is attacking from an upward angle boosting the clay if only a tad from the hitting force? With the naked eye, you can't tell much of anything for certain!!

    Neil, the Rem targets we shot at the 99 Grand would give one fits videoing those hits from different shotguns!! I saw clays hit and dusted pretty well without a piece big enough to see fall off and the clay changed it's flight path too!! That alone tells me that impacts do have a moving effect even if minimal to some degree.

    Hap
     
  5. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Hap, would you think that when a bird is deflected to one side, the majority of the impacts are on the opposing side? This would support Isaac Newton's third law of equal and oposite reaction.

    Do you think when one misses a target (full choke, normal range) a large majortity of the pellets are biased to one side or another or high-low?

    Have you ever seen a flying target pushed off it's line up-down by the shot charge (Air deflection) and snap back up to it's original line, remaining untouched?

    Do you think those Remington targets at the '99 grand had stress fractures introduced after being pushed off-line?

    Have you ever seen a target deflected by the shot but not come apart until well after the shot cloud had passed?

    You've been around long enough to have seen all this, right? And have others value your opinion and experience.

    If you were doing calculations or experiments would you include these factors? Or would you not include them at all.

    I think you would include them. Others would not. Regards, GAP
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Gapper, most of the clay target oddities you've mentioned I have witnessed first hand also, have even written about it here on TS over the years too.

    At a recent ATA shoot here in Tucson, I wrote of two targets that were dusted and wobbled without a visible piece falling off! Watching it all the way down, both broke apart about a foot before hitting the ground! Instead of a loss, both shooters got credit for breaking the clays according to our rules.

    "Have you ever seen a flying target pushed off it's line up-down by the shot charge (Air deflection) and snap back up to it's original line, remaining untouched?"

    That one I must say I've never witnessed that to say it was disturbed air directly from the shot cloud that caused it. I have seen clays jump on an air current that was faster moving air, then settle down in flight! Some targets may continue jumping over faster air currents also.

    There's no conspiracy in the making of these videos by Neil/Ron or any attempt to convince anybody of anything except what's seen here. Is it possible this may convince some to actually learn how to read their aim or point when using a shotgun on a moving target? I think the answer is a resounding YES!!

    Hap
     
  7. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Eureka. I found it. GAP
     
  8. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    9 p.m. eastern standard time. Wednesday July 13, 2011

    Now is your last chance to decide who's side of the fence you are on. Let's hear it gentlemen. Your votes of confidence. Which way?

    GAP
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Reading the breaks is an art, stop trying to confuse us with scientific mumbo jumbo. HMB
     
  10. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    How about a kid solving Rubik's cube in a minute but the professor can't do it with an instruction manual?

    Art, science, or mumbo jumbo?
     
  11. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    ... very interesting series, amazing actually. thanks!
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    The rules:

    Targets spin opposite the throwing arm.

    Most thrower arms spin counter clock wise, so their targets spin clock wise.

    Patterns are random arrangements of pellets in the shape of a _____. (I didn't see that video)

    The edge of the target closest to the shooter takes the first pellet strikes and the brunt of the energy.

    A rising target spinning clockwise will throw small pieces to the left, big pieces to the right when broken. Sometimes the pieces will be evenly scattered because of the random nature of patterns.

    It doesn't matter what side of the pattern hits the target, the top, left, bottom or right, the pattern of the pieces will be the same - small left, large right. When the pieces aren't small left, big right, they're evenly distributed.

    I challenge anyone to find small pieces on the right, big pieces on the left in any of the videos. Identify the video and target number.

    Thanks

    Joe
     
  13. yansica1

    yansica1 Member

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    Neil,

    Is this supposed to replicate a crossing target being read? I ask because although I can appreciate the difficulty in capturing quality images from different angles from the shooting position, surely that is the only way of seeing what the breaks actually look like to the shooter?
     
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Neil,

    Break readers do this:

    Take a hard right for example. The break is pieces, not smoke. They know they were off and determine if they were in front of or behind by the point of the gun in relation to the target when it went off. At a wide right angle the difference between left side point and right side point is so great, they know. If they can't tell left or right at that angle, then they're not paying attention and "couldn't read that one". At an angle, they probably shot too soon, so the small pieces left/big right reinforces the practice with right haders. If they were in front of the target they ignore the pieces. It happens so fast, it's easy to ignore. Point trumps pieces every time because it's more reliable.

    What about a high versus low point? At an angle that's easy to judge because the target has taken such a severe path. I've got in my memory some high/low frames when I missed a right hander. I believe they're keying on bird/bead info. How do you think us non break readers adjust and do better?

    Same story for left handers. The pattern of small pieces and big pieces isn't used when they're behind because it doesn't make sense half the time and the rest of the time there is no info. The bead/bird relationship in those last few frames before the shot trumps pieces. If they're ahead of the target, the pieces make sense.

    I believe these guys are doing something. I didn't see these possibilities until now after all the videos. They're just not very good at describing what they're doing and that's extremely forgivable. They're good shots and poor self documentors. Sew buttons on your underwear.

    Old Yansica has a point and he's sticking to it. Me, I'm keeping my eyes on the center of the target and letting the red dot come across it. Smoke or no smoke and adjust.

    Joe
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    yansica1, the videos do not represent what the shooter him- or her-self sees, I'll grant you. They do, however, serve several purposes.

    1. You have told us about watching a particular deceptively-set target being addressed by others on your squad and how they all made the same mistake. You wondered how Andrew and we could explain it. We thought it might help you if you saw a slow motion version of what _you_ see standing to the side of the shooter.

    The point was to show how small the deviation between viewer and shooter had to be to completely change the kind of information (potentially, that is, if reading worked) available. Viewed from above or below the gun the vertical is unclear in one direction or the other, depending on where the camera is. Right and left placement of the pellets, in contrast, is perfectly clear.

    Move off nine feet and the whole situation reverses. Now you can see everything about the vertical, but horizontal information has disappeared.

    You see, this destroys the "last-sight-picture" explanation of break-reading-by-proxy and forces its practitioners to get right back to straight 100-proof break-analysis, no water, no ice. Either you can read these for left/right or you can't _without any other information_ since there is none. Of course this has always been TBRs' heart-of-hearts belief about what they are doing anyway; they only throw us "sight picture" to get us off their backs.

    I sincerely doubt that anyone - and from your question I think that may include you - thought that they could tell much of anything from those breaks. If so, how does one prepare for a presentation in SC by watching the errors of others?

    2. We've gotten complaints - you must remember - that you couldn't tell enough about the vertical from the earlier films. It was thought that they must be deceptive since the breaks were so solid and some kind photo-prestidigitation or outright chicanery made it seem like there weren't nearly enough pellets to get that done. The first video in this chapter, if you use the frame-by-frame viewer as we recommend, puts those thoughts finally and unequivocally to bed. You can see terrific breaks when almost all of the shot is well over the bird. It's the "almost missed" situation which you, as I remember, found fault with. I hope you believe it now.

    3. I was about time to undermine the idea that the shot moves much of anything. It is, after all, shots' job to make a spot for a target to start to blow up and the target's job to continue to do it.

    4. The videos are "beautiful" to people like us and we wanted give people the chance to enjoy them as much as we do.

    Thank you for asking; all this was too much to put in our post in North Star Clay Target and I wanted a chance to address questions many probably shared.

    Neil
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I'll be frank, I don't think TBR's _do_ anything like that at all. I think they can't resist what their brains do for them whether they want them to or not.

    While the eye may thought of as a camera, the visual system is not "photographic" in any sense at all. Instead, it works and works to tell a story about our outside visual work, a story that to us makes sense. Among its tricks are size constancy, color constancy, brightness constancy and any number of others, modifications to the story which tries to relate what we have already experienced to what the brain "sees" outside now.

    I personally experience "reading the breaks" as so convincing that there is no other way to understand what I see when I shoot. Last Monday I was modifying my TM-9X in various ways, including moving the comb up and down to see what happened with smoke, just as you would do.

    When my gun would move out on a right-hander and the big pieces went right, I could not help but construct an account in my mind that included shooting too far behind the target. I did not search my mind for an explanation, I experienced the explanation. "Oh man, look at that break, I was behind and need more lead next time."

    Even after looking at all these videos which make it 100% clear that such a account is entirely unwarranted, that big pieces to the right has no "meaning" whatsoever, that was my instant thought when I saw the break. I would of course re-think and toss it out, but that's the problem. If you don't have the counter evidence I have - the videos, some time at Stockdale's last fall looking at shoot-offs from the side, the history of aiming so I know better, the math, patterning, and probability background that made Andrew's chapter so convincing, I would just "see" what I did and never "correct" it.

    So I don't think TBR's are "doing" any of this at all. I think is "being done" to them; they are just recounting a story their brains has packaged for and delivered to them in understandable form. That we should "doubt the very evidence or our eyes" makes as little sense to them as their explanation that they "use breaks for confirmation" does to us.

    However, Chapter 7 will test the credulity even of you. Though Hap, darn him, has already let the cat half out of the bag!

    Neil
     
  17. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Neil, how many more installments in this series?
     
  18. yansica1

    yansica1 Member

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    OK then, why do corrections based on flawed information work? Why do some stands produce biased breaks all day long?
     
  19. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Neil,

    cre·du·li·ty - willingness to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence; gullibility.

    There must be a new factor coming from the videos. The only thing I can think of after re-reading my good friend Hap's posts is that the upward movement of the target has an effect on the pieces.

    Last night, I saw a large center piece of a target go down as the other pieces stayed kind of level. I thought the pattern was surely over the target. And I saw lots of info about the pattern position from the patterns themselves as I watched others shoot. Now that's much more reliable info. Then I remembered your videos and reminded myself to stay visually alert, on the gun and all wood be well. It went fine.

    Thank you for that lovely piece of documentation. Our minds work so strangely, sometimes I wonder how humans have survived. There are days I feel I'm the center of the entire universe and then something outside myself wakes me from my slumber. Sock it to me.

    And Neil, my memory system lets me recall visual info in a photographic sense.

    Joe
     
  20. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    yansica, start with the facts and then work forwards.

    Do you accept that:

    1) Individual pellet positions are locally random (driven in the main by the turbulent air flow over the pellet);

    2) The collective pellet distribution (the pattern) is Gaussian on average;

    3) Once fractured, clays break unpredictably;

    4) The spin of the clay has a big influence on the direction followed by the pieces of a broken clay;

    5) The videos merely reflect the response of the clay to all the above.

    If you don't accept all of the above, then there's no point trying to progress.

    So, in a simple yes or no, do you accept all the above.

    If "yes", you may legitimately ask the question, "why do I *THINK* I can read the breaks?"

    Andrew.
     
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