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Reading the Breaks, Ch. 5 High hits (W&B)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jul 12, 2011.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    North Star Clay Target.com is hosting Chapter 5 in our video series about the way trap targets break and what that means for "reading" those breaks for directional information about where the main parts of the patterns were that led to those breaks. The subject of this chapter is breaks when the pattern is centered on the bird, mid-above the target, and far above the target. Now that you have seen so many it is less necessary that you download the video to your own computer. You can get most of the story just by watching the flash videos.

    This wraps up videos of this general type. In Chapter 6 (of 7) you will see something new!

    Click the link above and enjoy the show!

    Neil Winston and Ron Baker

    If you had trouble parking and got to your seat a little late and missed the opening four acts, they are:

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=975894

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=978292

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=979075

    http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=257986&Messages=32#986062
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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  3. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Neil, thank you and Ron for your time,expense and effort. Some of us certainly appreciate it.

    Ajax
     
  4. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    Awesome footage. Shows how we can be so very wrong when we tell our buddy "You were to the right on that shot..." :)
     
  5. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    These CH 5. videos look sort of readable to me. There is a little R to L breeze (on some) and I don't know how it affects the read but it is there. The breakage seems to correspond with the shot charge. It still appears you're not always hitting the target with the bulk of the charge. It's tough to read because the shot charge appears to come from some angle, and somethings get lost in the translation between video and the field.

    Neat camera work, but can he stop it down to get more depth of field without sacrificing resolution? All I'm getting is a flat representation of a multi dimensional occurence. Some chips are appearing to move slower than they may be and some faster. It is impossible for anyone to gauge their speed or vector without the dimension of depth.

    It's darn difficult to judge anything through video. We take your word that the target is moving at regulation speed, but can anyone see it in the video? If you can't judge the target speed, how can you judge any thing else?

    What does everyone else see here? Come on, don't be afraid now. GAP
     
  6. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Gap, If you turn the volume up you can hear some of the pellets pinging the clay.

    On a different tack, the "far over" video at 19s in is a neat clip. The clay breaks into two pieces, but just before it breaks there are two small jets of clay dust that indicate the clay was kissed by two pellets. If the clay hadn't broken, and then been retrieved, people would claim this is proof that multiple pellets are needed to break a clay. In fact, the two pellets were just glancing blows and didn't transfer enough energy.

    Andrew.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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  8. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Neil,

    In these last videos, when the patterns are to the left, even though they're high, there are small pieces on the left and big pieces on the right. This allows viewers to come to the conclusion that you can read breaks, even though it's just "some of the time". That's the kicker.

    Your videos as a whole give us a different conclusion and I think Hap says it nicely: You can't tell what part of the pattern breaks a target... However, people with invested concepts are real good at ignoring evidence to the contrary.

    You presented left and ride side breaks first. I wonder if a different order might have helped. Those left side patterns and breaks may cement the viewer into the wrong conclusion.

    I think the right side videos are your ace in the hole. It's the best case you've got. We should be seeing small pieces to the right, big to the left and we see just the opposite (when they aren't evenly distributed). I was shocked when I only found one right side hit that looked like what I expected. The rest was relatively easy.

    And the key point about the front of the target taking most of the pellet energy and spinning small pieces to the left, would support your overall case better if it was given out sooner. The simplicity is hard to ignore. Andrews oncoming video was perfect.

    The very last video in this chapter 5 is called 'high right hits' and is just georgous. The patterns are so clearly to the right and the small pieces are on the left and the big pieces on the right, which is opposite what we'd expect, FOR THE FIRST 3 TARGETS IN A ROW. That clearly demonstrates your case. Can you put this first?

    Thank you so much for doing this. I honestly believe shooters, new and old, will benefit from this for years to come.

    Smokify

    Joe
     
  9. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Quote from Joe: "Thank you so much for doing this. I honestly believe shooters, new and old, will benefit from this for years to come. "

    For the most part, no they won't. Maybe in 100 years time.

    Andrew.
     
  10. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    I am coming around... Still some pessimism, but leaning your way.

    It seems to me (now) that the front part of the target absorbs the first pellets and begins the breaking process. Then it becomes a cushion to the larger piece in front that is spinning right and tending to fly right upon target breaking. So, the mostly unaffected larger pieces have momentum to go right and do so. That seems to be proven to me.

    But as one that can see shot go past a target in real time I contend this;

    When we see poorly broken targets and pieces going to the right as we coach someone, we are inclined to tell them to "get into the stock a bit more or to move the comb a bit more to the right in order that the gun shoots more to the right. Adn that becomes our conclusion that the "big pieces going to the right" are actually an indicator that the target is telling us that the person is shooting left. Well, they are... But not because the large target pieces are going one direction, rather that most shooters that are struggling tend to shoot left and the cure is to move the comb.

    I'm in. Thanks Neil and Ron.
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Andrew,

    1 out of 4 orientations can be read. When the pattern is left, the pieces look as expected except for when they're evenly dispersed, so we're down to half of the left siders. That's enough to maintain the myth until there's die off. I think with the right presentation, the right conclusion is unavoidable.

    What you've presented here allows for more than one interpretation including the wrong one. Just change the order and you should be ok. Then when folks choose to ignore the evidence, well, I suppose some believe the sun still orbits the earth.

    Pattern right, break left. There are so many like this. How many are there?


    joekuhn_2008_030330.jpg


    This shows the fuzzy pattern on same target:


    joekuhn_2008_030331.jpg
     
  12. Simone

    Simone TS Member

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    Neil,

    Do you by any chance have a shot where only a chip came off? I know it is impossible to deliberately shoot just to get one chip. I think when only a chip comes off you should be able to read the break.
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Simone, there's one in Chapter 6, video 1, out today. I'll let you be the judge. Thank you, by the way, for your earlier observation that the chips keep spinning the way the target had spun. I hadn't noticed that and it was a breakthrough for me in my understanding of what's happening when targets break.

    Neil
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, we didn't show those high left/high right videos first because we wanted to follow a plan of movies - center, 9 o'clock, 3, 6, and 12 and cover each as the feature presentation. Corroboration would have to wait.

    Those two were our first. I've never believed in target-break reading since the first days when my coach, John Findorff, would sit behind me and tell me where I shot. I started as an aimer and have never gotten over it, so I knew perfectly well that he was wrong as often as he was right. That has continued to be my experience for the last 29 years. I value someone standing right behind me who can see _the shot, not the break_, because I think that works, usually. But the squad-member or bench-warmer who tells me what he thinks he has seen may as well have been doing it from a horoscope as far as I am concerned.

    I'd gotten the camera for target spin (yes, there's more of that too!) but we thought we'd test break-reading a little if the camera was up to it. We did it in the order presented, high left first. I was surprised how well break-reading worked. Clearly, the shot was driving the big pieces to the right as predicted.

    But then we saw the high right ones and they were just the same! We decided that there really was something interesting the camera could explain and set out on our program.

    Our critics have accused us from the beginning of pushing a certain point of view, but the dates on the videos show to what extent we were working without a net. Based on those first two movies we thought we knew where we were headed, but we hadn't taken any of the film that has become our "case." So we started with the understanding that we might well be proven wrong by our own evidence and were ready to 'fess up if that happened. But by that time we thought it virtually impossible that the yet-to-be-shot videos would show anything other than what they ended up doing.

    Still, there were some surprises, even thrills. We could never have imagined how spectacularly a clay we'd just barely nicked would blow up. That two pellets would falsely signal to the shooter that he was shooting very well had never occurred to us. As the shooter in many of these films trying to shoot a little "off" since centered hits were non-informative (for direction), I wouldn't have guessed how close you really have to be to avoid a clean miss.

    Thanks for playing our game so well; you have added a lot to the story, particularly your early idea that if you "adjust your gun for best-smoke" you are doing everything right. And the _only_ thing you can do, break-wise.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil
     
  15. Simone

    Simone TS Member

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    Thank you Neil for these revealing videos. I was also surprised that the pieces maintained the same directional spin even if they moved to the left. By the way, I haven’t read all the discussions here, but I think I am beginning to agree that it is difficult to determine where the gun is shooting by just looking at the breaks. That’s why I go for total smoke only :)
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    "it is difficult to determine where the gun is shooting by just looking at the breaks." (part of Simone's statement above)

    For a bystander, closer to impossible may be a better assumption? At best a guess is more likely than an educated matter of fact statement. Unless the surveyor can actually see the shot cloud pass by the clay or use a video to determine the connections, one's merely guessing. Even IF one can see the shot cloud pass by a target, he has no idea where the errant pellet came from within the shot cloud to break off the chip!

    I've always felt experienced shooters use that last look or bird/bead reference when the gun fires to make such determinations. There's enough random chunks flying in different directions to convince him he's correct, some of the time?

    Neil/Ron, you guys could have hired a professional video production company for a million or so bucks and still that wouldn't change those so convinced they can do? A closed mind is tough indeed to open? Thanks to you both, I look forward to seeing more of your work!!

    Hap
     
  17. Simone

    Simone TS Member

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    Hap said,"Even IF one can see the shot cloud pass by a target, he has no idea where the errant pellet came from within the shot cloud to break off the chip!"

    Given what I have seen in these video I agree with your statement, but I would still be looking at the Video Neil will be posting on the chip.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Chapter 6 is posted; let's move the discussion over there. The link is above.

    Neil and Ron
     
  19. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    A.C., Don't laugh too hard. Many scorekeepers can hear the clay bird being hit. Can't hear it on these videos. Of course, during a miss they can't hear the impact. Light hits are difficult to hear, making it unreliable for humans to use it for much. Almost anyone can hear pellets hitting trees in the background from the chair.

    Sounds crazy, I know. Like the earth is round.

    I'd bet that a bat can hear it, well enough to read the breaks. The deaf can't hear, the blind can't see. The stupid fail to use all the information available.

    This year, next year, 100 years from now enlightened people will use all the information available to correct aiming error, and shoot great scores. Others will flounder into obscurity. They are not at the level of the best and can't comprehend all that is obvious. Not enough processing speed.

    The sound wave concept is not real relevant here, but since you brought it up and have a habit of going somewhere else I'll try to steer you back to the correct course.

    Oh well, back to the center of the universe.

    Flame on. GAP
     
  20. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Eureka. I found it.
     
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