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Reading the Breaks, Ch. 3 Right hits (W&B)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jul 1, 2011.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You know the drill. Mouse over to North Star Clay target, find the tech Corner, find Winston and the link to Chapter 3, Shot right . (Link above, too.)

    Read the text. It's a bit more interesting than some of the earlier ones because we are finally getting to the point after all this time.

    Watch the videos, think about them, and post your reactions here.

    Make them specific. This "I could read the breaks" stuff is just not worth even typing anymore.

    Here's an example of a rejected posting on the Chapter 2 thread. "If anything the majority of these show that you can read breaks, nothing new to me." You see why that doesn’t count - you could have written that yourself without even watching the films. You have data in front of you. If you are reading these breaks, what, specifically are you doing. And I do mean specifically so we can start to do it too. Telling us we need to get the feelings right isn't getting us anywhere.

    You now know a lot more about the subject than any of us did a few weeks ago, enough to make some specific predictions about the next step, high and low shooting. So have at it. Don't make poor Kuhner and 870 carry the whole load by themselves; put on the yoke and share a bit of the burden.

    1. What will happen when the shot is mostly low and why.

    2. What will happen when the shot is mostly high and why?

    We hope you enjoy the films.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil and Ron

    ©Text and videos 2011 NMW & RWB
     
  2. cunninmp

    cunninmp Member

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    Niel,

    The right breaks are not on the web yet.

    10:40am pst

    Mike C.
     
  3. knutershooter

    knutershooter Member

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    Neil, I watched all of the videos and it is an awesome job! From watching some other footage of targets breaking I would say the low shot will push pieces upward and top downward at least that is my guestimation. I look forward to the footage and I am sure it will be acurate. I thought watching the mid breaks either right or left, it would be very difficulty on the line to tell if you were right or left exactly. I said to a guy the hard part with trap shooting is you can't really tell what or where the the problem is exactly. If you had trouble with golf for example you could tell immediately by flight of ball etc, but there have been many times shooting that I thought I was right there and it should have broke but didn't, kind of like fixing an invisable problem. The other shooting sports you could read the paper target and bench sight them etc, but this is a different animal!
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, if you close your browser restart it and "dump the browser cache" I think you will find the link you are after.

    Neil
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, knutershooter, that's just what we are looking for. Your entry has been accepted by the committee and will be scored with the others. The only prize, unfortunately, is the proof that you were game to play, but we are on a budget, after all.

    You second comment, that it's the the lack of feedback about errors in trapshooting that makes it so tough to improve, to learn from our mistakes, is the whole point of these experiment. And we appreciate your bringing it up. Think of break-reading as an attempt to provide specific feedback. It certainly makes a difference if it is imaginary, doesn't it. After all, wrong information is worse than no information at all, isn't it?

    Neil
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Neil -

    We had a lively discussion about this at the club last night. I'm not sure we came to any conclusions, but everyone had their thoughts.

    A couple of questions that came from our roundtable (and if you have already answered these somewhere else I apologize for missing it) . . .

    - Were the targets "hand-shot" or was the shotgun in a fixture of some sort?
    - Did you have to shoot a large quantity of targets and then weed out the ones that didn't fit the parameters of the test?
    - Any consideration for the same test on angled targets (i.e. hard left from 1, hard right from 5), or do you believe the path of the target relative to the path of the shot doesn't matter?

    Scott
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    With both the mid right and far right examples I only see one or two that are what I'd expect: small pieces or smoke on the right and big pieces on the left.

    What I do see is mixed pieces all over. I don't get it. I thought I had this figured out with the left side hits. On the right siders, I can see the pellets off to the right, but then the targets break into small and big pieces all over.

    Do I just need a nap?
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Scott, if that target was spinning on a stationary stand at 2000 RPM at the same horizontal elevation as if in flight. Would 17.x degree move of the shot to the left or right make that much difference? In other words, 3 shooting benches at the same locations as would be station 1, 3 and 5 with the target turned toward that angle. Only differences would be ever so slightly less target area, sorta a hidden backside on the extremes but not much with 17 degree angles off center. Shot with a locked in shotgun on a lead sled for point(aim) accuracy. I doubt it would make enough differences for accurately reading a chip at all. Due to target rotation, a random pellet could strike a clockwise spinning clay toward the bottom or top and that chip may veer off to the left on a bottom hit or to the right off a top most strike! That errant pellet may come from a pattern in front,behind,under or over that target?

    Hap
     
  9. unplugged

    unplugged Active Member

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    I can't seem to get the right breaks to load either. I've closed my browser and it still will not load.
     
  10. darkside

    darkside Member

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    Amazing pictures for sure. I am just catching up with the thread and am not sure if I can comment and be graded, but what the heck. It looks to me reading breaks for information other than smoke or no smoke might be over rated. Just my thought . Thansk for the great pics. Curt
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    All good questions, Scott, and as yet not addressed. I'm shooting these targets just as I normally would; Ron shot a lot of birds we will be covering in the high/low discussion. As 870 guessed, a lot of the time I'm trying to shoot left or right, high or low rather than "at" the bird as I normally try to make myself do. It's amazing how close you have to be to break a target even from the 16-yard line! Just a hair more than just a hair off and you have bought another lost bird.

    A feature of this high-frame-rate camera is a very, very narrow angle of view in the vertical plane and the horizontal, though better, is plenty tight too. Couple that with the need for a lot of telephoto and you play hell getting a breaking bird in the frame more than every now and then. Add a little wind and some bad luck or poor guessing and you can spend a day and a couple of hundred dollars and not get a single useable frame.

    For example, what you see now was shot on the 28th of June, after we redesigned the experiment based on what people were telling us. I shot two cases of shells and what you have seen in these left and right videos is practically every one that fit the left or right rules. In other words, I'm not cherry picking the clips to make a case; you are seeing what I got, all of them.

    As you read in the earlier posts, I'm only making a direct claim that this is what happens in trap. I have thought a lot about the angle case and have concluded, provisionally, that it is (probably) no different. Everything is coming from behind in trap and the maximum deviation can only be that the "behind" is angled over by 28 degrees. That is, the shot will be not all coming from the south, but now from south-south east or west. It's just going to hit _more_ a little to the right or left than it would if it were a straightaway. In my mind (again, this is provisional and I can be persuaded differently by a better argument) this will only make it _less_ likely that breaks can be read for left or right shot-cloud information.

    I'm glad these post have stirred some conversation at your club. That was a lot of the motivation for doing it, after all. The trouble with TS.com and all the action it gets is that "history" lasts only a few hours. Three days hence, no matter how much work a thread involves, it will be swallowed into the chronosynclastic infindibulum and might as well have never existed.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    With both the mid right and far right examples I only see one or two that are what I'd expect: small pieces or smoke on the right and big pieces on the left.

    What I do see is mixed pieces all over. I don't get it. I thought I had this figured out with the left side hits. On the right siders, I can see the pellets off to the right, but then the targets break into small and big pieces all over.

    Do I just need a nap?
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No, Joe, you don't need a nap. You are doing great! Glad to have you on board; this has been a pretty lonely train. But it _is_ filling up and we hear the next station is packed!

    Neil and Ron.
     
  14. CharlesK80

    CharlesK80 Member

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    Having laid to rest the popular belief a left or right hit can be discovered by the condition of the break, I have to assume a high or low hit would be equally non-discoverable from the break.

    Neil et al., thank you for your efforts to provide needed information to the trap community.

    MODERATOR: please exercise your discretion to make all chapters a “sticky."
     
  15. Mark425

    Mark425 TS Member

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    Even though I "THINK" I can read the breaks, I know in my heart I am wrong most of the time. After watching the videos, although some of the breaks do as expected it seems that its really a random event. Bet if Neil shot/filmed 1000's of targets and did a scientific analysis, that would be the case or darn near so. Dr. Jones also thinks you cant read the breaks. He used a different method but the results were similar.

    I think many of us, including me....see what we want.

    Neil, thanks for your efforts so far.
     
  16. skydiver41

    skydiver41 Member

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    Neil, thanks for all your hard work on this most interesting subject. Can you tell me the frame rate used on the camera for the video work on this project?

    Mike
     
  17. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Quote from Neil, "Add a little wind and some bad luck or poor guessing and you can spend a day and a couple of hundred dollars and not get a single useable frame. "

    I'd like people reading this to stop and have a think about how much all of this is costing . . . and that's before you figure in the time aspect. There's far more being invested in this that you'll ever see done elsewhere. The chances of someone else who's both smart and dumb enough to do this are pretty small. Make the most of it!

    Andrew.
     
  18. Twinbirds

    Twinbirds TS Member

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    my thoughts are small and trivial, like the random dispersion and the differences in density of different areas of the shot cloud. are these brought about by variances in camera angle?? if not then the difference would be in the dispersion within the shot cloud and it was indefinably different on each shot making the breaks that much more difficult to read because the density wasn't consistent.
     
  19. Old Doc

    Old Doc Member

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    It appears to me the center of the shot cloud tends to be low whether right or left. Bead checking or just a low shooting gun? Don't think this would change anything. D Winter
     
  20. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I'm going to take Dr. Andrew's advice to make the most of this and predict what I think will happen with low shots and high shots.

    Low shots will be similar to the right side: nothing in particular to see with small and large pieces all over the place.

    High shots will be similar to the left side: smoke and small pieces on top, larger pieces on the bottom.

    Why? Because the world is symmetrical and it would be a good finale to the story about the two sides. The real 'why' - don't know.

    The fact that the right side is so different from the left took the wind out of my sails. Why would they be so different?
     
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