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Reading the Breaks, Ch. 2 Left hits (W&B)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jun 30, 2011.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    If you are new to what will be a series of threads on this subject, you will benefit by looking here first, the introductory chapter.

    http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_winston/centering_target_breaks.html

    I’m starting to get a bit worried. Have all the target-break readers been struck with a paralytic virus which is preventing them from telling us how they do it, what we will see in the forthcoming videos, and why?

    I know there is a thriving population of TBR’s in the wild. I can hardly shoot a round of practice anywhere without one of them, unbidden, explaining to me how I’m doing with comments in the idiom of the trade: “You bloodied the noses of those two” “Tailfeathers! You must be stopping the gun” or “You are on the proside; that’s where you want to be.”

    So why, I wonder, don’t they post here with an explanation of the physics of tailfeathers or how they can tell a shot on the proside from one on the antiside. Joe Kuhn has tendered his entry, as now have a couple of others, and they get a lot of credit from me for that, but where are all the others hiding? And why?

    Today’s two videos cover hits when the bulk of the shot is on the left side of the bird. The first covers mid-left shooting errors and the bird’s response to them; the second illustrates far-left shooting.

    Click the link above (Website URL) and enjoy the show.

    Neil
     
  2. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Neil:

    Very interesting, but you're too good of a shot even when trying to (mostly) miss! How far off do we have to be to get the "golden BB" effect?
     
  3. Simone

    Simone TS Member

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    Neil,
    Thanks for doing the work and posting these videos.
    I looked at your 16 yard “center” hits from “Chapter 1” and I think a lot of the hits were left.
    Here is how I saw the hits for the 16 yds (H- high, C – center, Lo – low) for vertical position of shot and (Lf – Left, C – Center and R – Right) for horizontal position.

    1. Lo – L – Target hit low on the left side

    2. C-Lf

    3. C-Lf

    4. CC – Perfect hit

    5. Lo – R

    6. Lo – C

    7. CC

    8. Lo – Lf.
     
  4. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Very good. Good to adjust POA. Thanks NEIL
     
  5. det131

    det131 Member

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    So far it looks like you can be off a lot and still get a decent break.

    How the heck do we ever manage to miss any of these things. Maybe low scores as opposed to high scores are the big challenge. Just didn't know how good I really was:)

    Jim
     
  6. Simone

    Simone TS Member

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    Neil,
    The far left hits are very eye-opening in that it produces some “unexpected” results of large pieces flying off to the left. However, note that every single chip continues the clockwise rotation after the target breaks. I think the angular momentum of some of the pieces caused them to go left even though the hit is on the left. However, most pieces do tend to move right as is expected from a left hit.
    Interesting to see if the far right hits will produce more chips going to the right because of the clockwise rotation of the target.
    I think it’s better to read a target when only 1 or 2 small pieces fall off.
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    "So far it looks like you can be off a lot and still get a decent break."

    Jim, your newly found idea works much better if the shot charge is in front of the targets, not so good from behind (angling targets I add) though? :)

    Hap
     
  8. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Simone: Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't follow some of those points. To me the unexpected thing with the far off hits is that the target breaks so well, and evenly. I don't think direction of the pieces means anything at all, at least nothing related to where the pellet hits the target. Yeah, larger pieces are opposite the side hit (with the closer shots), but thats just because of more pellets on the near side.

    I have no idea how the video would help with POA, Earl's point went right past me.

    Seems to me that the more we miss by, the less we can tell about where we shot. I'd still like to see some "farther left" hits.
     
  9. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    Interesting videos on the shot string and the break, thanks for posting. I've alwyas just looked at the break for the direction the broken target took . And tried to adjust from that point. This series of videos make it much clearer.
     
  10. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    I urge everybody who hasn't already to get Apple's Quicktime:

    http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

    It's free. For these videos you can step through (or back) the video a frame at a time and see just where and how many pellets strike the clays.

    You will then see two things: the random position of the impact(s), and second, the response of the clay to impacts in certain positions. I'll say no more about this for now but the inquisitive should take a long and slow study of the movies.

    Andrew.
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    In looking at the mid-left video, I rated what I saw in each target.

    First target: quick smoke on the left, small pieces on the left, larger pieces on the right.

    If we can't agree on that, going further is pointless.

    joekuhn_2008_030311.jpg

    target 3 is pretty much the same with a little more smoke, closer to the center, small pieces left, large right:

    joekuhn_2008_030312.jpg


    I've noticed this on 7 of the 16 targets. Others do have left/right clues giving us some info about the direction of the hits.

    Noting what Dr. Andrew says about the randomness of the impact of the shot in relation to the targets, I think this is pretty good evidence that you can read breaks.

    The far left video is another matter, but I have to go to work. I haven't rated each target there yet.

    In the end, there should be a test for all impact orientations...can shooters read breaks in normal speed video?
     
  12. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Joe:

    I think part of the issue here is what do we mean by being able to read the breaks? I'm in the "can't read" them camp, but what I am talking about is the target where just one piece comes off. Yes, many targets you can read - I'm pretty sure that I'm real close when just a black cloud floats there, and yes, on the near lefts in Neil's videos the left side is hit harder.

    But those aren't what I had in mind, it's the targets that are hit much lighter, with just a piece flying off to the right, lets say, that I was thinking about. If we see videos of these type hits, which I'm sure is really tougher to actually do intentionally when filming, I'd expect to see the direction of the piece influenced more by the spin of the target than by the location of the main body of shot, not to mention the pellet could very likely have hit on the right side even though the shot was really left of the target.

    I'm still really surprised how well (and evenly) those far left shots broke the target.
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I see it about as 870 does, Your comment that you see directional evidence in 7 of 16 cases to me just means that if we read breaks we will be right about half the time, which, as I said earlier, we could match by flipping coins.

    The test will be to compare these videos with ones when the shot is to the right of the bird. Will the big pieces generally go to the left? I'll post the link here, hopefully in a couple of hours.

    Thanks again, Joe, for looking at these videos so carefully and posting your impressions.

    Neil
     
  14. just_bob

    just_bob Member

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    I think you might be able to read some targets if you have a really dense pattern.

    Most of the pellets in a 20 inch circle or less.

    Then if you smoke half the target and half is in chunks maybe your subconscious will correct.

    While 3 pellets will always break a target recent published studies prove even 1 pellet is

    good enough much of the time.

    So the edge of the pattern in my mind tells you little more than a loss.

    Choke for smoke and let the brain do the rest.

    I do however thank Mr Winston for his boundless energy and efforts to bring a scientific

    method to our sport.

    And I look forward to him having us read the break when we don't see the pellets

    or know in advance what the answers will be.

    That will be really fun.


    Just_bob
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JB, thanks for the pat on the back and yes, I think that as time passes and I graduate from iMovie to Final Cut Pro X (and have the time and energy to learn it), I'll be posting exactly what you propose. I expect, however, by the time I get to it we will be wearing snow suits, not shorts.

    Neil
     
  16. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Target breaks can definitely be read. Otherwise it would be nearly impossible to adjust point of impact. What do we do when we add spacers to the comb, or offset, or adjust the rib? Is it random, just a lucky guess? How does one KNOW to adjust up/down or left/right until we center the bird? Coin toss? Not for excellent shooters. Top shooters will add a 1/64 shim or a sliver of cardboard to adjust POI, are they kidding themselves?

    Can a AAA champion shooter explain how he breaks 200,300,500 straight? No he can't explain it. He just does it. No "paralytic virus" there, eh?

    I can't fault the effort of those trying to find the "mysteries" in shotgun patterns, just that using two dimensional representations (video) of multi dimensional events will always come up lacking.

    Your gun is seriously underchoked.

    Keep up the good work. GAP
     
  17. yansica1

    yansica1 Member

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    Sorry but am I missing something here? If anything the majority of these show that you can read breaks, nothing new to me I might add! Yes some of the breaks are surprisingly solid given that the charge is supposed to have gone left but even that does not surprise myself as I have often smoked a target I thought (deserved to miss) I had missed!

    In the UK we shoot mostly sporting, Trap is not nearly as popular over here and of course the infinite variety of sporting targets compared to Trap means you tend to build up a pretty good repertoire of visual impact impressions to work with. It is not solely the break itself that you read but the preceeding milli seconds or so leading up to pulling the trigger, the break itself is merely a part of the equation. I see what I expect to see, not all the time but enough to adjust my aim for the better. I shoot to win so believe me I am not in the habit of humouring myself about likely problems.
     
  18. yansica1

    yansica1 Member

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    Gapper wrote:
    Target breaks can definitely be read. Otherwise it would be nearly impossible to adjust point of impact. What do we do when we add spacers to the comb, or offset, or adjust the rib? Is it random, just a lucky guess? How does one KNOW to adjust up/down or left/right until we center the bird? Coin toss? Not for excellent shooters. Top shooters will add a 1/64 shim or a sliver of cardboard to adjust POI, are they kidding themselves?



    =======================



    Thank you
     
  19. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    yansica:

    For purposes of this discussion, "reading the breaks" does not include anything other than what you observe from watching the target.

    I think the main point behind this is addressing observers that see a small piece fly to the right from a straight-away target, and say "you were to the right" when in reality they have no idea. I think the weaker the break, the less we can determine about where we were off. I don't think a single piece or two helps at all.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gapper, I doubt anyone thinks that you can't tell, by and large, whether your vertical POI is centering the targets well or not. Nor does anyone deny that if you move the comb up or down and the breaks are more smoky, that you have used "reading the breaks" to improve you shooting and probably your score.

    If that's all one means by reading the breaks theres no discussion; It is possible. However, I will say here, parenthetically, that actually using that system is tricky, a lot harder than it sounds, and is subject to many missteps or wrong conclusions. Ask anyone with a teeter-totter Perazzi rib and adjustable comb how it's worked for him and how long it took to get it right if he ever did!

    That why we were so careful in our Chapter 1 post on North Star Clay Target (link above) to define the kind of "break-reading" our videos were going to set out to investigate, Here's the critical passage.

    "Here’s what I think is claimed:

    “The way a bird breaks provides information about where the bulk of the pattern was, relative to that bird.”

    You see the distinction? Your version of "breaking reading" addresses "how far" the pattern is from the target. These tests examine not how far, but rather "where" the pattern is, relative to the target.

    It's a different question, that's all, and may result in different answers. That's why we defined it as we did. I'd like to point out that in that post we begged people to correct our choice of definition and as far as we can tell, no one did.

    Neil
     
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