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Reading the breaks Ch 1. Center Hits (W&B)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jun 27, 2011.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Do any participants here “read” target breaks? I agree it hard not to but don’t you ever wonder if you are right? Can you really trust the way a target comes apart to provide information about where you shot?

    Ron Baker and I have been making high-speed videos of target breaks to answer that question and the resulting movies should be convincing evidence for anyone who wants to see for him- or herself what the answer is.

    As time passes we will post videos of the shot cloud to the left or right of the bird, under or over it, and a few interesting “outtakes.” But we need a baseline, which is this case means “direct hits.”

    Downloading and watching the videos will give you confidence that you understand them, how to interpret them, and the assurance that what seems to be happening really is. Here’s the kind of thing you will be seeing:

    Let’s look at a representative “centered” break.

    There’s a surprise right from the start – the shot seems to be coming down on the birds from somewhere above. (The camera is closer to the trap and below the shooter and that’s why we see what we do.) It’s a parallax effect, but easy enough to see past and get the essential information. Ron and I have other versions and viewpoints, but I think this is the best one for seeing what happens when most of the shot is left or right of the target. As time passes, we will buttress the story told here with other perspectives, but for now, just try to understand what you are seeing. Remember, the way the camera is set up, if a pellet is below and near the bird in the video, it’s below the bird on the field too. A pellet above the bird in the video is harder to locate; that is, we can’t say for sure where it is, vertically, in relation to the target.

    Here’s a nice centered hit:

    The target

    framezeroalonetarget172-1.jpg

    Some pellets are entering frame. Remember. You are looking a bit from below, so they only look like they are coming down – they are really coming from behind you.

    600morepellets187.jpg

    More pellets get closer.

    frame4morepelletssurround192.jpg

    The last frame before a pellet hits the bird.

    frame5lastframepre-contact195.jpg

    And here finally contact, 1/600 second after the last photo.

    frame6contact196.jpg

    Now a few consecutive frames

    600secondlater197.jpg

    600secaftercontact198.jpg

    600secaftercontact199.jpg

    frame10200.jpg

    frame11201.jpg

    Frame12202.jpg

    Skip a frame

    Frame13204.jpg

    and another

    frame14206.jpg

    and another

    frame15208.jpg

    again

    frame16210.jpg

    ten frames later

    frame17tenframeslater220.jpg

    and ten later

    Frame18tenframeslater.jpg

    ten more

    frame19tenframeslater240.jpg

    ten more

    frame20tenframslater250.jpg

    and so to the end

    frame21temframeslater210.jpg

    I hope this has whetted your appetite to see what’s waiting for you on North Star Clay Target. Mouse on over to the link above, find the “Tech Corner” midway in the blue bar, scroll down to Neil Winston and find “Reading Target Breaks, Chapter 1, centered breaks.” Read the text there, download and watch the videos, and post your reactions, predictions, or complaints here.

    (If you have a MAC, right-click on part 1 or part 2, select "Download linked file as" and look for it in your downloads folder.)

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil and Ron

    © Texts and associated videos 2011 NMW & RWB
     
  2. lc

    lc TS Member

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    gee, that is really neat to see. Wish I had a camera behind me that could take pictures like that when I miss a target.
     
  3. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Nice work Neil. Jim
     
  4. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Excellent job. Were the third and fifth bird of the first video a little off center? What distance were these breaks? I'm trying to get an idea how big the shot cloud is. Interesting how some wads are spinning, and some are tumbling. Thanks,

    Wayne
     
  5. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I downloaded and watched with VLC Media Player, which allows for slow motion viewing. I can view reliably at 0.06 times the original speed.

    One thing is apparent to me, the effect of the shot string is very visible. On these centered hits, a flat pattern wouldn't leave such large pieces. There appear to be holes in the pattern, which seems relatively tight, caused by the shot string.

    Is that what I'm seeing?

    Danny
     
  6. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Reaction: Based on the break, I'd like to say where the shot was - left, right, over, below or centered.

    Here's my attempt at

    Video 1: C, C, L, L, L, C

    Video 2: C, C, C, C, O, C

    How'd I do?

    Could be a training video!
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Danny , the effect of shotstring will become pretty clear when we show videos from a different vantage point.

    I don't think any of these videos show "shotstring" at all in the way it is conventionally thought of - namely a cloud with looks like an RPG - a thin nose, husky body concentrated forward, and thin tail.

    I think if you concentrate not so much on _how much_ the targets break but rather _when_ they break, I think you will begin to imagine a shot cloud which is more like an open umbrella, with the center forward and the edges hanging back _a _lot_. Give these videos a week with other viewpoints and see if you don't agree.

    Here's something to consider. Look how very, very slowly the target is moving relative to shot. It's visual evidence of the 10-to-ratio of shot speed to target speed everyone talks about. I think it shows:

    1. That for the pellets in the center, the conventional shotstring makes no difference at all. The target is not going to fly in or out of it; from the point of view of this part of the shot cloud (the center) the target is practically motionless.

    2. When the bird is hit by a pellet or two at the edge of the pattern (again, I'm sorry to say, in a later video) the pellets which hit are _well behind_ the main body of the shot swarm. They hit later, way later. This why I've come to think, when we are talking about hits at the edge of the pattern - of an umbrella, not so much a "string"

    Wayne, the shooter is at the 16 with 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2's and a Wilkinson 0.025 choke tube in a TM9-X. It's what I've been using for singles lately. The breaks are a bit farther out than they would usually be in competition since I am mostly trying to aim a bit off center and aiming takes time. But I needed a lot of off-center shot-clouds for the break-reading challenge.

    It's true that some off these are a bit off-center, but I think in fairness we can agree that are all more on-center than off. In my opinion they are no more "off" than can be accounted for by the fact that a shotgun does not put its pattern centers in the same place every time. I'll get a little farther into that in my post to Joe Kuhn.

    Thank you for your comments,

    Neil
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I'll be honest, I don't see any directional information in any of these clips at all. Maybe there's a bit of a difference in one break from another when the first pellet hits right or left, but since the centering is pretty good, it's pure chance whether that first pellet will hit left, center, or right in the first place.

    Add to that the fact that shotguns shoot a _pattern_ of shot-centers. Oberfell and Thompson estimate that the size of a group of pattern centers is an inch for every five yards of distance and even if that is, say, 50% too high as I think it probably is, it means that there is no way in the world a shooter could correct where he shot based on what he sees here, because they all could be dead on, or off a bit in either direction not because he did something, but rather because the gun did.

    You haven't told us what standard you were using when you read those breaks. That's what we need before we move on to decidedly non-centered breaks. Calling them after you see the shot is, as I said, a lot like picking the winner of a horserace after the results have been put up on the tote board. It doesn't count.

    So the next movie will again be in two parts, the first with the shotcloud clearly to left, the second with the shotcloud way to the left.

    To you and all the other break-readers here: What will those breaks look like and, for extra credit, why?

    Thank you, Joe, for playing our game.

    Neil
     
  9. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting Neil. Thanks for providing that. Very cool still frames. I would love to see a bunch of breaks broken down.
     
  10. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    My only thought was that more choke was needed. The breaks are nice, and they would "count," of course, but I would, and do, use more choke.

    In your subsequent videos is the choke changed? If not, do you have plans to repeat your series with a tighter choke? Something in the 0.035 - 0.040 range?
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Scott, in videos shown later, the choke is tighter. I will leave it to you to decide how much difference it makes in the answering the question that all these videos will ask: Is it true that the way a bird breaks provides information about where the bulk of the pattern was, relative to that bird?”

    Neil
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    No. Pellets shot to the leading side can break a chunk off the backside of the target also. Struck as such, the rotation will fling that piece to the left leaving the target readers to believe they shot behind when they may have shot in front.

    I read the LAST look I had with the bird/bead relationship to tell me if I was under, over, behind or too far in front and not the direction a piece may fly off.

    Good job guys!!

    Hap
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    "You haven't told us what standard you were using when you read those breaks"

    My standard is twofold: the chips are opposite the side of the hit and the smoke is on the side of the hit.

    For the shotcloud clearly to left - "What will those breaks look like?" Smoke on the left, small pieces on the right.

    For the shotcloud way to the left - "What will those breaks look like?" Small pieces on the left, larger pieces on the right.

    The why has to do with pattern density. As you go out to the edge of the pattern, it becomes less dense and therefore less able to grind the target into pieces. So as the pattern is moved to the left it is less able to grind the target into smoke. The target gets closer to the edge of the pattern where it is less dense. The gradation is from smoke, to small pieces to large pieces.

    Smokify.

    Joe
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    That's great, Joe, exactly what we are looking for! I only hope others will follow your example and provide their own predictions.

    Again, thanks for your input,

    Neil
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I was going to add 15 degrees for the Hap Effect of the spinning target, but then I changed my mind because the speed of the shot is so much greater than the speed of the spin, although I don't have a clue what the spin speed might be, nor do I know the direction of the spin as clockwise or counter clockwise.

    I predict the shot will blow right through the target in a process called smokification, a topic I dearly love.
     
  16. Smiley

    Smiley Member

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    I think if you watched the last chapter of Phil Kiner's DVD you can see that shot flies through the air in a ball about the size of a medium sized beach ball ,the size of the ball determined by the constriction of the choke.
    Paul
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You don't know how fast targets spin, Joe? Shame on you! We covered that in the last class!

    It's 2000 RPM and you get to it the same way on Ron's North Star Clay Target web site.

    Neil
     
  18. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    I wonder if the lack of perspective has anything to do with not showing any apparent offset movement?
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Remember, sbe, the perspective difference is vertical only. There is no perspective effect horizontally. One thing that a camera like this, with a very shallow and narrow frame, shows us is that targets come out at very different places, bird-to-bird. It sure doesn't look like that when we shoot them, but the camera shows considerable left-right movement between shots, even though the trap is "locked" of course.

    Nevertheless, all these are straightaways (to the extent a PAT-Trap can throw them) from the shooter, through the camera, to the bird. Thus the camera shows us, in the horizontal plane, exactly what we see ourselves.

    If there is no "apparent offset movement" it's because there is no real offset movement.

    Neil
     
  20. unplugged

    unplugged Active Member

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    Based on whats been said so far and other videos I'll play.

    First if the shotstring is like an umbrella shape, the "tail" which is thin may hit the clay on one side or the other. That doesn't predict a "left or right" side break but might well indicate high or low where the mass of shot passed before the target was hit by the "tail". From the videos on your site
    the shotstring looks more like a mushroom shape than than "umbrella". Kind of like a round head with a narrower stem. That was my impression from looking at the videos.

    The other thing that may be de-mystified is the effect of the centripeltal force and pieces "spiining off" after the hit. It appears the shot is so much faster than the "spin effect", that you may indeed be able to tell where the targets were hit. But that (combined with the shotstring shape) may not tell where the majority of the shot swarm "missed." By that I mean if the tail of the shot hit the target on the left side, you most likely can tell where the target piece came from, but not becuase of "aim" of the shot.
    From other videos of the spinning target, the target is spiining very slowly vs. DISTANCE traveled, when compared to the impact speed of the shot.

    It is only those very few "delayed" breaks where the target was clearly cracked and much later (relatively speaking) when the spin does do further damamge and the target break appears to be delayed, that the centripetal force made the break appear. But for normal impacts it would appear to be instantaneous breaks to the target when impacted.

    The other thing these videos will not show with a TIGHT choke is the spread of the shot at distance and when there are HOLES in the pattern where a "chip off the RIGHT" side may well have been a centered shot (comparing the flight of the shot mass) but the impact was a chance hit by only some of the main mass of shot along one side or the other of the target. Not all of us are trap shooters and many shoot too open of a choke at distant targets such as Sporting Clays.

    The other thing not addressed by only shooting TRAP presentation is the target shape and relationship relative to the shot swarm when hit. i.e. droppers, chodells, batteau, bottom face etc.

    But it is all good stuff.
    I will also speculate based on others finding is that shotstring shape through a FULL or near FULL choke is NOT the same shape as other choke constrictions vs. distance and speed. This is all good stuff, but so far, the conclusion can only be about shot behaviour through a TIGHT choke at a given target presentation. I know there are limitations in both time and equipment for looking at shotstring vs. various other factors. I only suggest that this isn't conclusive explaination for ALL shotstring shapes, given the limited scope of the videos.
     
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