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RE: Handicap..top shooters please post

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Mo Bill, Aug 27, 2009.

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  1. Mo Bill

    Mo Bill Member

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    To his credit,Phil Kiner did post here his thoughts on our handicap system..
    Ways to change it..improve it..make it better.To date,I have not seen any
    input from any of the other top shooters in our sport..Leo,Ray,Kay,Frank,
    Rick,Harland,Bob..You men would be a great resource..please post and give
    us your insights...they would carry weight..those from this little
    22 1/2 yarder with a scant 90 HCP average don't count for much.

    Respectively...

    Mo Bill
     
  2. Mo Bill

    Mo Bill Member

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    I meant"respectfully"...sorry..

    Mo Bill
     
  3. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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    Mo Bill,

    I'm well past being a top shooter, but would be willing to give my comments. Today's top handicap shooters know that adding more concrete would be a detriment to their long yardage success, so I doubt that you will be receiving many comments from them. It simply gets down to what is good for me (the existing winning 27yd shooters) or what is good for the future of the game. Do we need more yardage? Absolutely. I wrote several of our EC and delegates over 2 years ago about a 27+ concept. Phil Kiner was about the only one I told about it that believed it had some merit. I also believe PK truly has the best interest of the game at heart. One of the EC members didn't believe it would be a good thing, and the President at the time didn't even acknowledge receiving the information I sent him.

    Anyone that would like to receive a copy of the 27+ concept, please email me and I will send it back to you by means of an attachment.

    Personally, I would favor adding 2 yards to the 29yd line. This will prevent a disruption of squadding, as 27s and 29s can shoot together. This is way overdue.....about 25 years or so.


    Steve Carmichael

    Las Vegas Gun Club
     
  4. Robb

    Robb Member

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    Thanks Steve, I'd like to read it.
     
  5. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Steve.... I would appreciate a copy as well... And I have to say this: If you are way past being a top shooter, I will gladly accept your present skill level anytime!! Dan
     
  6. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Steve, I'd like to read it, please.

    Bob
     
  7. motowheelguy

    motowheelguy TS Member

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    You can add 2 more yds, make us shoot 7/8oz #8s and a three hole bird.....and we will still WIN. Why? because we work harder at it than most. Now get out and shoot. I didn't earn a 95.34% from the 27 by sitting on my a**!

    Aaron Holguin
    Duck Hunter, part time trapshooter
     
  8. ned408

    ned408 Member

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    I really don't consider myself a top shot, but I'll reply anyway. I think the easiest fix is going back to the three hole target or longer yardage. I would love to see 97 be a good cap score again. Many times our students have come up to Nora and I and told us they just broke the best handicap score ever, and it wasn't even close to making a shootoff. It has to be a let down for them. Just my opinion,
    Randy Ross
     
  9. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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    I sent a copy to those that requested it.

    Steve C
     
  10. jarbouh

    jarbouh TS Member

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    Steve, Can you please send me a copy thanks.

    Eli Jarbouh.
     
  11. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    The Concept of 27+


    When you read the following, please keep in mind I have removed my shooting cap, and replaced it with a gun club operations cap. I have only the best interest in the future of our game at heart……Steve Carmichael, A.T.A. Life Member



    It seems, now more than ever, there has been an ongoing debate of how to improve the current A.T.A Handicap system. This is largely due to a dominance of some of the very top shooters, who win on a regular basis from the existing 27yd line. Improved targets, trap machines, voice release, guns, and ammunition have all played a role in this. We have also adapted an easier target (less angle), and just time-in-grade by some of our top shooters have resulted in consistent wins and high scores from the back yardage.



    For many years, the 25yd line was the maximum yardage of the Amateur Trapshooting Association (A.T.A.). However, the 27yd line finally came to be in the mid-50s, due mainly to the extraordinary ability of Arnold Riegger, from the State of Washington. How is it we were able to add two yards of concrete, based on one shooter almost 50 years ago, but now we can’t add anymore?



    I have heard the same argument many times…..”our club can’t afford it”, or “our club has terraces behind the 27yd line”, etc….or, in some cases, especially back East, some clubs don’t have a problem with 27yd shooters dominating the handicap events.



    So, what is the answer?



    Consider the concept of 27+. This may be a very simple solution to a lot of the ongoing problems we are dealing with. This concept simply allows the clubs that are
    in need of adding more yardage… the endorsement and blessing of the A.T.A. to do so.



    A 27+ gun club should have 29yd walkways, (or at least a few traps equipped with such). All 27yd shooters start at that yardage, but could earn yardage back to the 29yd line just for that tournament. Having a maximum of 29yd insures that there will be no re-squad problems due to any of the shooters in a given squad earning multiple yardage at a tournament. These shooters would also return to their normal 27yd status at their next A.T.A. tournament, no matter where that may be.



    This also gives us another chance at setting a new standard of excellence in our sport. Making the 27yd line doesn’t carry the status it use to, but to be recognized as a 27+ shooter would be a whole new ballgame. To be recognized as such, you should have to earn at least 6 to 8 yards during the year, from only Satellite Grands, or the Grand American. No other shoots would qualify, not even State or Zone shoots. This handful of recipients should be recognized annually in the average book for their accomplishment.



    This concept would provide us with how the top 27yd shooters fair from 28 & 29 yds, providing us with some useful statistics. Record keeping should not be a problem, just a matter of setting up the right software or shoot report forms.



    27+ should have a quality, professionally done logo, tightly controlled by the A.T.A., and not to be duplicated by any unauthorized parties. It would be mandatory for this logo to appear on the cover of any official shoot program, or in the advertisement of any tournament where the 27+ concept is being used.



    Remember, this is voluntary by the clubs that would like to implement a new system, and must be promoted, endorsed, and advertised by the A.T.A. to insure it’s success. At our facility in 2006, in 18 feature handicap events, 70% were won by a 27yd shooter, and 70% of the top 10 scores were also 27 yd shooters. The percentages would have been closer to 90%, but winter conditions (light, wind, temperatures) of our February and December shoots act as an equalizer for short yardage shooters. If 27yd shooters are winning over half of the handicap events they participate in, the system needs adjusting. The existing gun clubs, at least in the Western States, are in dire need of this type of solution, the clubs back East may be fine just the they way they are. However, 7 of the 11 top scores in the 2006 Grand American Handicap were shot from 27 yards.



    Obviously, 27+ is not the answer to everything, but it could be a very good start.




    Steve Carmichael
    Las Vegas Gun Club
     
  12. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    I have wrote this many times but I will write it again. With the plate type [for angle adjustment] trap maching history, there is no way to really check if a target is a true 2 or three hole target. The only way is if the ATA required side stakes...........there would be just too much fudging by clubs. Which is how I think we got to this point anyway.

    GS
     
  13. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

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    I am not a top shooter by any means but have been on the 27 yard line for a while so I'll share my thoughts.

    First off, Aaron is right. You can't dumb down handicap enough to where a shooter who shoots maybe 500 targets a year will be competitive. I haven't shot much this year(94.05 on 1900 targets) but like Aaron I didn't get those targets because someone gave them to me. I shoot a lot of practice in the off season, in bad weather, when I'm tired, when it's hotor cold and on and on.

    You want to go to three hole targets, knock yourself out. I double dog dare you. But the same people you mentioned are still going to win. The only difference is that the shooter who occasionally pops a good score will be eliminated. All you will do is to further widen the gap between them and us and chase more shooters away than the current system does.

    Same if you make a 29 yard line, 7/8th ounce loads or whatever. The best will always be the best.

    I've heard rumblings about making a "professional class." Sure, that will eliminate the big guns and keep them from taking all of your money. But then what about the next crop of "top guns" that you still can't beat. There has to be a way to eliminate them as well. Then the next group of hot dogs comes up until it gets down to you and me. Then those we are beating will look for a way to eliminate us and pretty soon the only shooters left in the ATA are those who win with a 55 or 60.

    Adding concrete would be hard on some clubs but it was mentioned that certainly they could add sidewalk to a few traps. Well, what happens when these traps are preceived as the best because you know darn good and well that in pretty short order the 29 yard guys will be winning everything again. Now the shooters shooting sub-par scores will want to shoot on the "good traps" and we have to figure out something else. I see the 29 yard line as more trouble than it would ultimately be worth.

    Any change you make, if it's across the board, will not effect the top shooters. It will only help them by further distancing them from us common shooters and make it easier to take our money.

    As long as skill is involved making a handicap system equatiable will be difficult. You can't handicap the top shooters enough to make it where some person with no skill can beat them. And if you do I bet that within a very short time they will learn what it takes to break three hole targets, 29 yard targets, or whatever with 7/8th ounce loads.

    I want to win so I practice and shoot as much as I can. Skill is what it takes to beat a better shooter. You get that by practicing and shooting more. If you don't want to do that then I don't know what to tell you.

    Respectfully,

    Alex Ragulsky
     
  14. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    Gentlemen,
    We are talking about "Second order change"........something that is not easily accepted and many give reasons (Barriers) as to why changes won't work. If the handicap system is to be fixed we need to remove the barriers. Collect data on why shooters stay and why they have quit and make an educated move rather than a speculative move. By the way, doing nothing is also a move..........

    Lyle
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Lyle- Your short, simply stated post, contains so many good ideas that I fear few will understand it.

    The most important data we need is from the small clubs. Making decisions on results from a few large shoots is a mistake. The small clubs hold the future of trapshooting, and the shooters from the small clubs support the larger shoots.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Hi

    From a bottom shooter!

    So much talk for so few. The best will win. GAH - 1 Shooter - 100!

    Yardage group money when it is played or added and let the fun continue.

    Those who don't understand can play high gun money or shoot at events that only pay high gun money.

    Regards

    W&W
     
  17. Charlie Becknell

    Charlie Becknell Well-Known Member

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    I have read this post with great interest. I would like to thank Steve and Randy for their comments which I believe are truly meant to help the game. I believe that the best shooters will still win their share of handicaps with some of the changes discussed, which is only right, big dogs like to win also. I would like to see comparison of scores when shooting:

    1. Shells restricted to 1200fps

    2. Lighter loads, 7/8 and 1 oz.

    3. Longer yardage

    4. Shooting 3 hole targets.

    After comparing the results, maybe we can determine which of these helps to " level the playing field". I shoot for fun only and don't play the money and would only be considered as someone who is interested in improving the game.

    Charlie
     
  18. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Very easy to fix the system. Just give more reductions. I have averaged about 90% on my last 110,000 27 yard targets. Just got a reduction to 26 as I did earlier this year. I'm sure I'll move back to 27 soon and continue to average about 90%. Change the "break point" for reductions to 95% and the number of targets for reviews to 500. Do not give punches for any score lower than 98 and you will have fixed the system. Everyone is very unhappy an under-handicapped shooter wins if he is at the 20 or 22 yard line. What about the under-handicapped shooter that is shooting from the 27. Some of us do not have the ability to average 95% from the 27. Also, it's a fact that a 91 or 92 average on targets shot in PA, NJ, NY or New England is equal to a 94 or 95 average shot in the western states. Don't comment on shooting in the NE until you have done it for a year or two and at least 5000 targets shot in April thru October.

    EE Bornman
     
  19. rw993

    rw993 Active Member

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    Change the yardage punch level to 98. Let the novice and novice+ shooter a chance to improve to a level nearer to 27yd ability.

    Ron Wilson
     
  20. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Charlie is on the right track.

    To "level the playing field" we need to know the changes needed to get the top guns to an average of say 91-92%. This will give a chance to sandbaggers or someone having a "good day" to win or tie with with a score in the high 90"s.

    Of course this will cause everyone to face a yardage reduction - as our scores will also drop. So instead of holding a 90 average at the 24, I may get reduced to 22 or 21 where I can now average 90 under the new rules.

    But my 90 average on the 21 will give me a better chance of winning against a top gun running a 92 average than I had with a 90 average on the 24. This is because his average in now 92 instead of 95. The good 27 yarders will still win most of the time but not all the time.

    Many people refuse yardage reductions so they can shoot with their buddies. Many want to get to the 27 no matter how bad their scores are - for the "honor". And they know they cannot win with a 90 average at the 24 anyway; so why not get to the 27, average 85, shoot with your friends and not win there too?!

    But I suspect there are not many "top guns" who will want to see their averages reduced to the low 90's. I need to shoot from the 16 (where I have a 95 average) to have a chance against them now. The guys making money with the present system have little incentive to change it. They play the options for a reason - TOO WIN MONEY!


    Don Verna
     
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