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raised rib or stock work

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Jerseyshooter, Dec 7, 2009.

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  1. Jerseyshooter

    Jerseyshooter TS Member

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    OK, here is the stupid question of the day. I have a Beretta 303 that works wonderfully. It is a trap special with a fixed monte carlo and butt. When I mount it, the beads have substantial space between them. I can't seem to get my head low enough to make a figure 8. The top bead is also offset a smidge to the right. I really hate to cut the stock up....would a raised rib add on to the barrel help this issue? It would seem a raised rib would give a more natural upright head position. Right? Wrong? If so, any recs on where to get one? Thanks RICH
     
  2. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Is the gun shooting to the POI you want? If so, leave it alone and don't worry about the beads. If you need a POI change, an add-on rib is PROBABLY easier, assuming you like the stock fit as is.

    A raised rib, in your case, won't really give you a more heads up position since the stock is still going to fit you the same way...
     
  3. below 0

    below 0 TS Member

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    If the gun shoots where you are looking, just disregard the center bead or replace with a taller center bead...Odie
     
  4. Jerseyshooter

    Jerseyshooter TS Member

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    I should have put more into my post...sorry. I did some POI shots at 13 yards onto paper. When I just naturally point and shot, I was about a foot or so high from the X....no pellets were within a hand's breadth of the X. When I "rifle shot it" and lined everything up I was about 3-6 inches high....about 2/3 of the pattern was above the X, 1/3 on or below. So my POI would seem to be awfully high with a natural fit.
     
  5. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Try Vicki at Keen Sites. Bob
     
  6. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    If you raise the height of the rib without changing the height of the comb, you will effectively lower the POI. Normally, when adding rib height, you have to raise the comb by the same amount to keep POI, but in your case, since POI is currently high, putting an add on rib and leaving your comb alone would help some. You would need to experiment to see how much height you would have to add here. The best way I have found to do this is to get some balsa wood, cut some strips of varying height (say 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch, etc) and temporarily tape them to the existing rib to see what height works for you. Once you know the needed dimensions, you can have one the rib makers like Keen Sights (or others refe'd at times on this site) to make you a rib for your gun. The idea of having to have a "figure eight" with your beads should be discarded. It is not important, as the middle bead should only be used to ensure you have shouldered aligned the gun properly for you, then forgotten. As for the left/right alignment, again, do your patterns center on the POI?
    If not, then a change in cast off/cast on would be required. Later Berettas (like my 391) have a set of stock adjusters which allow for some change in cast. I don't know if 303s also had this feature, but if so, you need to adjust cast to get a better fit.
     
  7. Jerseyshooter

    Jerseyshooter TS Member

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    Thanks Jimrich60....sounds like a plan. At least it is a cheap way to find out if the correction works before coughing out the money for an add on rib. I will give it a try and let y'all know how it turns out. Thanks RICH
     
  8. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    If your shooting is good-great don't do anything If you can't hit squat intall an adjustable comb.
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    jimrich60- You just gave some excellent advice.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. victoria K

    victoria K Member

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    Hi Rich

    I Second Jimrich60 advice, playing with the balsa wood will let you know exactly what works best for you. I just wanted to add getting a couple pins (used in sewing the ones with the white heads on them) work great for beads. Cut off some of the pin part leaving enough to push down into the balsa wood, now you have beads. Move them around until you get the wanted sight picture.

    If I can be of any help just give me a shout


    Vicki Keen...... Keensights
     
  11. Jerseyshooter

    Jerseyshooter TS Member

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    Thanks Vicky.....you all were on my "next to talk to" list after I did the balsa wood excercise. I have heard good things about your product....but it will be a lot more effective if I zero in on exactly how high I want the rib!
    Of course....if the balsa wood works fine I might go a month or two with just that to outshoot a couple of smarta$$ guys with Lujtic's and Kreigoffs at our range. They already give me grief about having just a Beretta 303....it would be a joy to mess with their heads! They can't hit squat either, so it should not take long.

    Ill be in touch. Thanks RICH
     
  12. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Adding an adjustable comb would allow you to raise the POI (by raising the comb) as well as making changes to cast on/cast off by moving the comb left or right as needed. It would not allow for lowering the POI however, if that is what you would want to do (unless of course, you had the comb cut such that it could be set lower than it presently is as well as raise it). The addition of a higher rib in most cases (the one discussed here was due to a particular issue of lowering POI with a fixed comb) is to permit a more heads up position for many, and for some, because it offers a "cleaner" sight picture of the target, without the barrel blocking the view. Not everyone likes or can use this high rib "sight" of course, which is why top singles are still popular, although unsingles seem to be taking a larger share of sales lately. So no, you do not have to change your rib, and the adjustable comb will allow you to better fit the stock to your needs in general and most like it for this reason.

    Jim R
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Did you happen to buy this gun used, Rich? The results you report are _very_ unusual. Maybe all you have to do us undo the stuff someone may have done to it.

    I'm a bit worried about your POI testing as well. You say the gun "works wonderfully" but if it really does shoot a foot high at 13 yards you must be lucky to hit much at all, it seems to me.

    Neil
     
  14. KRK32

    KRK32 Member

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    Doesn't Berettas have shims in the stock you can change for poi and fit. Kirk
     
  15. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Neil

    You make a very good point. But, from the results reported by Rich when he deliberately sets a "figure 8" bead alignment, the guns POI would seem relatively normal. It is when Rich mounts the gun in what, for him, is a comfortable and "natural" position that the POI is abnormlly high. This seems, to me, to indicate that Rich's normal stance and hold probably create something of a more "heads up" posture than would normally be seen with a standard comb height, resulting in the very high POI (i.e., he sees a lot of rib which, in an unmodified gun, would be somewhat unusual). While it might be simpler to modify one's mount and gun hold, to me it has always seemed better to modify the gun to fit one's shooting style rather than the other way round (within reason of ocurse), hence in this case simply raising the front bead via a higher rib may just work better for Rich than other possible solutions. Only actual shooting experience can tell for sure, which is why I suggested using some balsa strips to create a temporary raised rib as a trial. Since Rich is apparently shooting okay in actual targets, it may be that his pattern testing stance and hold do not match that used in actual target shooting (sub-conscious differences perhaps). In this case, the added rib height might actually detract from target scores. Time will tell here, but the balsa rib changes are a cheap and easy way to find out.

    Jim R
     
  16. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Rich,

    If you want to shoot with a more natural and upright head and neck posture, you will need to lower the recoil pad and increase the drop at the heel dimension with the installation of a pad adjuster of some sort.

    Follow the advice above to address your gun's POI and/or the installation of an add-on rib to get a figure-8 bead alignment.

    Rollin
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I see your point, JimR. But even rifle-shooting a 303 won't get you three- to six inches high in my experience. I mean, look at the ribs. Also, 303's were bent left a little, not right when I was shooting mine. I've quite a bit of experience with them:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    The thing is, we can't discount that there may have been a previous owner who bent it up and bending it back down just may solve all of Rich's problems at no cost.

    Neil
     
  18. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Neil

    You may well be right. I have no experience with the 303, having confined myself to other Beretta models (391, 687/682 hybrid, S57E, and some others. So I don't know exactly what the 303 should shoot, as your experiences show you. If this is a used gun, it is always possible a previous owner had it altered (stock, barrel bending, etc) which could cause it act as Rich describes. If the buttstock is merely shimmed to raise the POI that much, it would of course, be a simple matter to change shims to lower the POI decently, I would think (I assume the 303 has a shim system similar to the 391?).

    Jim R
     
  19. Jerseyshooter

    Jerseyshooter TS Member

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    Holy Cr@p! Are those all 303 barrels???? That is really an amazing photo. Thanks for all the info. I got the 303 because I cracked a sholder in a car accident and wanted something softer shooting than my Citori 525. When I say the 303 function perfectly, I mean it swings great and the recoil is greatly reduced. The Citori sight picture is very natural...I put it to my shoulder, beads line up, no thought involved. With the 303, I have to concentrate on pressing my cheek deep onto the comb and turn my head slightly to the right to get sight picture that gives me and "spot on" POI. The butt pad also ends up with only about 2 inches on my shoulder, the rest is above. I also end up with a sore cheek after 50 rounds! I want to be able to throw the gun up naturally with a comfortable sight picture like I do my Citori. I did buy it used from a very reputable guy on this forum...if it was bent, I doubt he did it. It is also in simply perfect condition. I just hate to cut on the stock. Thanks RICH
     
  20. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Rich

    Given your latest descriptions, if I had to guess, I would think it a may be that the stock on your 303 has too little drop both at comb and heel for you. Neil would know far better than I what those dimensions are from the factory, but it is possible that the stock has been shimmed up to reduce drop and this causes both the high POI for you, as well as the face slap you are experiencing. If this is the case, a simple shim change might help (if that is possible on the 303) as well as put more of the buttpad on your shoulder. Should require no external stock mods if this is the case. The length of pull may or may not also be having some effect on the shooting comfort. Perhaps too short from the sound of it? Just some thoughts

    Jim R
     
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