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Questions for you GURU's. Forcing cone vs chokes

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by poe/IL, Oct 16, 2008.

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  1. poe/IL

    poe/IL TS Member

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    First off for those of you that don't know me or what I shoot. I am a newbie to trap shooting. Been a hunter all my life but never got into clays except to warm up for hunting season and that was my own personal trap machine or hand throwers etc. I'd never shot trap before until about a month and a half ago. I'm using an old (1953) Remington Model 48 Sportsman. Its a 3 shot field gun with a fixed full choke. Makes a great duck/goose gun but only handles 2 3/4" shells which isn't much by today's standards but when lead was king for ducks and geese this gun was a good one IMO. From the patterning I've been doing all I know is it shoots dead on. I have to wipe the target out to bust the clays. Most of the really good shooters at my club say their guns shoot high because they want to see the target when they shoot. Dead on is not all bad for me since as stated above I was a hunter before I became a trap shooter. I think most field guns were made to shoot dead on to just a tad high?

    I'm just to old to go in the field anymore so my wife and I decided to take up trap and we LOVE IT! She is addicted big time and I'm way past that point already. First thing I do each day is read what y'all have to say. I try to keep as current as I can on your discussions. OK. NUFF about me and my gun. I have a couple of questions.

    I've read that lengthening the forcing cone is probably one of the best things you can do to a trap gun next to getting it to fit properly. I think I'm almost there on fit. I made an adjustment on the stock last night that I believe will stop me from tilting my head when mounting the gun and that may be a big help. I've also read that shot gets banged up pretty bad first from the initial explosion when the primer sets off the powder thus flatting a lot of the shot at the bottom of the shot column and then going through the forcing cone and barrel. Lengthening the forcing cone kind of makes sense to me after reading that. Less banged up shot should equal less flyer's therefore a more even pattern? They also state that lengthening the forcing cone helps reduce recoil. Actually I don't feel my gun at all when I shoot and neither does my wife so that is not a real problem but still a consideration.

    My gun is a fixed full choke barrel. It seems to be putting out a pretty nice 30" pattern at 40 yards. I think I could possibly use a Improved modified choke at the 16 yard line? Possibly even a modified but don't really think I want to spread it that much with a modified? I think the improved modified will keep the pattern fairly tight and about right for the 16 yard line which would be fine on Wednesdays but on Saturdays we not only shoot from the 16 we shoot from the 21 and the 27 too. Our club holds a lot of special events that they just make up as they go LOL. Its fun though so it keeps it interesting. Anyway shooting from the 21 and the 27 yard lines makes my full choke barrel seem pretty nice. If I decided to get screw in chokes (if my gun measures for them), I'm considering improved modified, a full and a extra full? Any suggestions? I'm getting between 369 to 382 pellets of #8 shot 1 1/8th oz loads in a 30" circle at present. 75% of my shot in a 25.31" to 26.61" circle at 40 yards depending on the brand shell I'm using. Amount of exact pellets in the shell is unknown but predicted is 461.

    My question is. Of the two things (forcing cone vs. choke) which would you do first? I'm kind of leaning towards the forcing cone but you guys have been shooting trap much longer than I and I'm sure know which is best. I think I'll get a more even pattern and have less flyer's with the forcing cone but I might have more success on Wednesday nights from the 16 yard line with an improved modified choke. I thought possibly that one adjustment (the forcing cone) would make the gun good to go from anywhere on the line?

    I anxiously await any and all opinions.

    Thanks, Brian
     
  2. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    You are not going to like my answer but here goes. If you are a relative newcomer to trap shooting I would do nothing to that particular gun. I would enjoy it the way it is, start breaking scores in the 20's and save my money for a dedicated trap gun.

    A full choke is just fine for trap and forcing cones are, most likely, something you won't even notice.

    Do not spend money on that gun because if the bug bites you'll be shopping for a nice trap gun rather quickly.

    Jerry
     
  3. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Jerry got in ahead of me by a milisecond. His recommendation is seconded by me. Shoot your current gun and learn the game as best you can; make sure you will really stick with the game while test driving as many models of trap guns you can by any method. Eventually one of those guns for sale or belonging to an acquaintance will stand out as the one you will want to move up to.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  4. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    What Jerry and Bob said.
     
  5. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    And with the money you DIDN'T spend on forcing cones and modifying your choke....take a clinic offered by a genuine good coach/instructor.

    I have taken Frank Hoppe's clinic, but there are many others such as Phil kiner, Kay Ohye, Harlan Campbell, etc.

    In the long run, that will help you much, much more than forcing cones or choke work.

    Tim
     
  6. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Brian.... You just got the two best answers to your question right off the bat. I'll definately have to agree with what they both had to say, and add this: Even if you put all kinds of money into the forcing cones, or choke work, or whatever else you decide to do to the '48, you will eventually end up searching out something more suited for shooting trap, for both you, and your wife, in the near future. Save your money for that gun now, and shoot what you have and enjoy yourself, and, above all, welcome, Brian, to what is possibly the greatest sport you will ever participate in. Enjoy yourself, and you, and your wife, are about to meet some of the nicest, most sincere people around......... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  7. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    You have received excellent advice. I still have the Winchester Model 50 with untouched Full choke that my Dad bought brand new in the early 50's. There is no way I'm gonna mess with that gun. Forcing cone work might give a small reduction in recoil or maybe not the above article explains barrel modifications. Screw in chokes could be handy for Sporting Clays but are less important for Trap - you still need a tight choke for long range and a more open choke gives a weaker core at the patterning board but does Not put any more shot holes into the outer ring.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Brian, I've done three tests of forcing cones and never found a difference in patterns. Here's the best example "before and after."

    While pellets may well be deformed at the base of the wad (though nothing like that article in Shotgun Sports you probably just read) there's no connection between that and forcing cones.

    I'd leave your choke alone for a while, rather concentrate on getting the stock to fit - that's actually important, maybe about the only important thing.

    Neil
     
  9. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I do forcing cone work. I would NEVER consider lengthing one in the gun you are talking about. It's too old and should not be used to shoot trap with.

    If you are price conscious then go pick up an 870 or 1100 trap used. They'll last a long time.

    Having a gun fit has nothing to do with lengthening a forcing cone. The latter only tends to reduce felt recoil as the shot charge has a more gradual reduction process from leaving the chamber and entering the bore.

    Whiz
     
  10. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    I agree with Neil probably the most important thing you could do as a new shooter or old shooter is to have a properly fitted stock. You can do it two ways. Custom stock or have your comb cut and made into an adjustable comb. I would also put on an adjustable butt plate.
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    OK, I confess. What an 11-48?

    Neil
     
  12. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Neil, don't play the young shooter! You KNOW what the 11/48 is. LOL

    Still a good one to take a stroll in the field with.

    Find a used 1100 Trap and get someone who knows about such things to make sure it fits. An adjustable comb is not a bad idea.

    If the gun fits, get a little instruction, then ALL the other little things will work for you. If your gun does not fit, you will not have a whole lot of fun on the trap field.
     
  13. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Never thought I'd get a chance at Winston "the newbie" LOL. Neil it was a great gun by Remington 11/48 then11/58 if I remember correctly , the fore runners of the 1100. Brian,What great advice from the cream of the crop. I hope you and your wife have many years of pleasure shooting with us. Shoot often and well, Bob
     
  14. Dednlost

    Dednlost Member

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    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..get the slack outzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..pull.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzkeep the rod tip upzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
     
  15. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    11-48.........Ah, yes the Green Shoulder Syndrome. I remember now.

    My Model 50 has half the recoil of those mules.

    HM
     
  16. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Practice, Practice, Practice you will notice that the more you practice the luckier you will get ... Don't tell the targets your not shooting a trap gun and they will never know, but trapguns will usually have less felt recoil if the gun fits you or your wife properly ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  17. poe/IL

    poe/IL TS Member

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    Again guys you have come through for me. I thank you all very much. Seems like everyone is in total agreement that I should not mess around with this gun and should buy a trap gun. When I made this post one of the things I hadn't considered in my ignorance was the fact that trap guns are heavier duty than field guns. This all started to sink in as I was reading your comments.

    Now its back to the drawing board and looking for a good buy on a used gun I guess but not in the immediate future. For now I guess I'll just have fun with what I have and look at what others in my club are shooting. Several of the guys at the club have offered to let me shoot there trap guns. So far I have always declined. I'd hate to mess up someones $14000 gun LOL. In fact I'd just sit down and CRY if I did. Its not a matter of whether I can afford a new gun but I really have no idea of what is best for my wife and I at the present time. I've seen some really pretty guns at my club. Some of the guys shoot very well with them while others struggle like I do. Not sure what problems they are having? One guy hit 99 out of 100 Wednesday. The only one close to that as it was very windy. He shoots a Perazzi which is for sale. $4000. I should have ask him about shooting it. If he shows up Saturday I'll do that just to see how it feels. If I thought I could pick it up and go out and nail 99 out of 100 I'd buy it LMAO. I don't think the gun makes the shooter. You have to have some ability first and understand the game. The gun also has to fit you properly I do understand that fact. I'm sure the Perazzi could be made to fit me or my wife no problem as its fully adjustable. I'd have to give the Perazzi to my wife while I continued to shoot the Model 48. That would be a bear to do LOL. Well I'm still in the early learning stages. A complete novice in fact. I'll start taking guys up on shooting there guns and maybe just fall in love with a certain gun?

    Its great to have experts like y'all on the subjects I find interesting to talk about. Knowledge is great and I have very little when it comes to trap shooting. I'll keep posting questions from time to time and keep reading your discussions. Its all a great learning curve and one heck of a lot of fun while learning.

    BTW Neil Winston. My gun is not an 11-48 its a Remington Model 48 which is only a 3 shot version of the 11-48. I had to stick this in here since the guys say your such a NOVICE. Maybe more of a novice than me??? LMAO.. Just kidding Neil. I've been reading your posts since I found this site and I love looking at your graphs and reading your comments. Nice to see you guys have a sense of humor along with your expertise. I know I sure do appreciate you taking the time to help a newbie like me find himself. Not that I ever will but I'm having fun anyway and to me that is what counts. I've sure gained a lot of knowledge in a short time reading your discussions. I have a very long ways to go but as stated above I'm having fun doing this.

    Thanks, Brian
     
  18. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    My Stepdad had an 11-48 that he used to hunt with before he and my Mom got married almost 50 years ago. About 35 years ago I loaned it to my best friend to use for hunting, and he kept it for years. About 15 years ago he called (he lived in Oregon still, I in Idaho) and wanted to give it back to me. I told him to keep it, but it turned out he had inoperable brain cancer and did not have long to live. He wanted to make sure that I got it back. Since he died it has sat in my safe, until last Sunday when I took it out duck hunting. It brought back many fond memories to use it, memories of my Dad, my friend Dan, and the way things were in my youth.

    Brian, enjoy your gun, and don't do anything to it. If you want to later you can pick up a dedicated trap gun, or if you are like most of us, several of them. Memories and time spent with loved ones are precious, and momentoes help bring them back.
     
  19. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Brian: You or your wife do not need a costly gun to get started. My advice would be to see if you can pickup a good used Remington 1100 trap, a Beretta 391 trap or if recoil is not a factor a used Remington 870 TB. These guns will not "break the bank" and if purchased right, you will lose very little money if and when you want to upgrade to a higher end gun. However, if you are buying the gun for clay target shooting; I would concentrate on a gun that has choke tubes. This way you can shoot all the clay target disciplines with it, if you wish. (Trap. sporting clays, 5 stand etc.) Good Luck. Ed
     
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is it necessary to install a forcing cone in old winchester model 50