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Question regarding rules after a shoot in Mason MI

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Strider, May 2, 2009.

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  1. Strider

    Strider TS Member

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    The new AIM rules require that a shooter has shot at least 300 registered targets before the Michigan State Shoot, which is to take place on July 4. I have no problem with these rules, but I am a senior in High School, and between banquet, class trips, family vacation, church fundraisers, etc, I need to start getting those registered targets in, whenever I have the free opportunity.

    So this morning, my dad and I drove out to Mason and participated in a 100 target event - 16 yard singles. Getting classified was interesting, as most of the volunteers/workers had never seen an AIM card, but in the end it all got worked out.

    We encountered several problems with the voice activators not working properly. On certain stations, the shooter had to be sure to yell pull extremely loud, else the target would not be thrown. I can accept minor problems like these as simply part of the sport. On our last 25 however, (Bank 10 D) we encountered some bigger problems.

    I started on station 2, telling myself to be ready for a hard left. I was dealt a hard right on my first shot. . . and the next shot and the next shot etc. It was on the third series of targets that I noticed a pattern, and the fourth series of targets that I was pretty sure we had a problem. Sure enough, the trap house was only throwing hard rights. We called the round off after each shooter had used up five shots.

    I felt sorry for the gentleman on station 5, who was telling the squad leader that we could not count those birds, and needed to re-shoot those five targets. The first three shooters scored as 5,4,3 - I am not positive but I think the last two shooters scored a 5 and 4. Having missed, I was unhappy with the round. It is very frusterating when you keep telling yourself, "Okay this one has got to be a hard left" and instead you are greeted with a hard right.

    A line referee was called to our bank. He arrived in a golf cart and without getting out of his vehicle yelled for us to count the targets as scored, and to finish shooting the remaining twenty targets (once the trap house was set to throw random targets of course.) Now, I do not know the rules, but at the time, those rules sure did not sound right to me. I'm still in high school and was a little bit intimidated by the much older line referee in the golf cart. In any case, I did not want to come off as being arrogant, or selfish, or as someone who cries over spilled milk, but anyway, when the ref yelled out "Sounds good to everyone?" I said "No, not really." The other shooters were standing behind me, not really saying anything and the line referee and the female passenger focused their attention on me.

    The woman asked who the squad leader was and when the gentleman stepped forward, she told me that it should have been his responsibility to realize the problem and stop everyone from shooting. At first, I didn't say anything because like I said I do not know the rules, and I really did not want to appear disrespectul to the older shooters, or to the line referee. My squad leader must have seen I wasn't happy because he said "You sure kid, because this is your opportunity." With his encouragement, I responded to the female referee and said that "The squad leader was probably kind of busy putting away his empty shell and reloading to immediately notice the problem." When none of the other shooters said anything and the referees continued to argue, I agreed to just count the targets as scored and continue shooting. I wasn't happy with how I shot, but it was very windy. . . I ended up with a 95, (I keep telling myself I actually shot a 96) but I am curious as to the correct rules and how the situation should have been handled?

    Thanks,
    Nate
     
  2. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    You should go to the ATA website and download a copy of the rulebook, it's got a ton of good info . . . .

    As for your specific situation - targets shot are scored. There are no "do overs" in ATA trapshooting when a legal target is thrown on the command of the shooter. If the targets are broken, discolored, illegal flight, etc there are provisions for re-shooting (but you should read the rulebook to understand how this works).

    And a last piece of advice - don't ever think you are going to get a certain target. Look for the target and after you see it - shoot it. That way when something like this happens it won't bother you.

    Scott
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Troubles with the voice releases aside, they were legal targets that were thrown promptly. You shot at them, you own them. The fact that you brought up the problem speaks volumes about your character and sense of fair play. Good for you.

    Eric
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The targets were not legal. Inorder to be legal the trap machine has to occilate,and give the shooters random targets. Shoot management was not doing its job. HMB
     
  5. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    HMB, what page of the rule book do you get that information?
     
  6. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    HMB,

    There's nothing in the ATA rule book about that, that I can find. Please enlighten us as to where you found it.


    Eric
     
  7. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Nate -- Scott and Mixer are correct (as usual) and HMB is incorrect (as usual). Does not matter it is it oscillating or not. Doesn't really matter if they were legal or not. If a WHOLE bird is thrown and you shoot at it, the results are scored. Open and shut, no discussion. Everything else is minutia.

    I second mixer's comment -- good for you to bring it up. I have seen whole squads shoot all straight aways for a whole round and then laugh about it when they got off the line. Doing what you did was the "self policing" part of the game and I congratulate you for doing what is right. Do what Scott said and get a rule book. Read it cover to cover and then re-read the scoring parts a couple of more times. ALWAYS have one in your bag as you will not believe the number of scorers and line referees that do not know the rule book.

    See Section VII "Official Scoring" pages 27-32. Pay particular attention to Lost targets, No targets & the Failure to Fire rules.

    Also, as an aside, did everyone know about this new rule? Hadn't heard about it:

    Section VII.A.8:

    A contestant that inadvertently shoots ONE post at the incorrect yardage shall be allowed to move to the correct yardage and reshoot only those targets scored “DEAD” on that post. Targets shot at the incorrect yardage and scored “LOST” shall remain “LOST”. Targets shot at the incorrect yardage on more than one post shall be LOST.

    So I guess there are "do overs" now....

    John
     
  8. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to have to get a more up to date rule book. Mine from 2005 says nothing about reshooting targets from the correct yardage as above. Thanks for the heads up.

    Eric
     
  9. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Eric -- my 2008 book doesn't have it either. Haven't got a hard copy for 2009 yet, but will in a couple of weeks. Musta been a new rule inserted at the last annual meeting -- don't know how I missed it. I like it, since the only alternative to someone realizing the shot the wrong yardage in the first 5 shots before was DQ & then count the scores, with yardage, if they earned everything.

    Nate -- thanks also for providing me a reminder of how to act as line referee. I will often do the same (not get out of the golf cart) depending on what kind of day we are having -- it would have diffused the situation a little if the line ref would have gotten out of his cart and not acted as "bossy" & provide a little explanation of the rule. An experience like yours will drive some people away from the sport. I will be more on my Ps & Qs at Indiana this year.

    Thanks,

    John
     
  10. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    John -

    That do-over has always been there, but it's not really a do-over (in the sense that a do-over will provide an advantage to a shooter).

    Before that rule there was a rule that said targets shot at the wrong yardage and scored dead had to be reshot, targets scored lost remained lost. What was never clear in the old rule was how to apply that - one post, one trap, the entire event. Looks like this rule was to clear that up and basically allow you to shoot one post over - but there is no way to improve your score by doing so, although you can make it worse.

    Scott
     
  11. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Scott,

    You learn something every day!

    John
     
  12. samiam03

    samiam03 Member

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    Strider:

    Get and read the rules section by section almost to the point of memorizing the text,

    Then always question authority - listen to his interpretation and then tell him it differs from what you read - don't let yourself be intimated as you will probably know the rules more definitively than he.

    sam

    Oh and Strider - Knock them dead - best of luck
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The machine not oscillating was a mistake by the "management". Management is not perfect. Sometimes, even shooters make mistakes like lifting their head. Both mistakes are unfortunate, but they happen and in both cases the targets count.

    The rule about shooting from the wrong yardage has been around for a long time. The new book clarifies what to do in this situation. Two weeks ago I was shooting in North Carolina with a former ATA President. He broke five targets from the wrong yardage. He discovered his mistake and re-shot the five targets from the correct yardage. Even former ATA Presidents are not perfect.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    jevoliva

    Section VII.A.8:

    A contestant that inadvertently shoots ONE post at the incorrect yardage shall be allowed to move to the correct yardage and reshoot only those targets scored “DEAD” on that post. Targets shot at the incorrect yardage and scored “LOST” shall remain “LOST”. Targets shot at the incorrect yardage on more than one post shall be LOST.

    Do you know why that rule is in place? Because a decision has to be made on those targets inadvertently shot at the wrong yardage. According to the rulebook shooting at the wrong yardage is a disqualifying offense.

    SECTION XII
    DISCIPLINARY ACTION, DISQUALIFICATION AND REINSTATEMENT

    B. DISQUALIFICATION
    1. A shooter may be disqualified for an event or for a whole tournament
    at any time by Shoot Management, or at any time by the Executive
    Committee or such person as they shall designate for that purpose,
    or disciplined by the Executive Committee, whenever the following
    prohibited conduct is brought to their attention.

    d. if the shooter fails to shoot at his/her correct yardage in any sub event
    except as permitted in Section VII. Par. A., 8.;

    If the provision you site were not in place then anyone that mistakenly shoots the wrong yardage is subject to DQ. If it were a true do-over you would get the opportunity to re-score all the targets not just the dead one. If you break all the targets at the correct yardage that you have at the incorrect yardage you gain nothing if you don't your score get smaller.

    BTW if you go to the above wed address you can read the rulebook on line instead of waiting to get a hard copy.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. pj 999

    pj 999 TS Member

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    Nate, also do not think that squad leader is only one that can say anything about targets or situations when they arise. All shooters can question targets and speak up if they see something out of line. Paul
     
  16. Joe Woods

    Joe Woods Well-Known Member

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    When you call targets ,you own them.
    It is sad that you had a squad of 5 ATA shooters and know one including the scorer allowed the shooting to continue. (only a guess, but likely the trap was partly set for doubles)We all have had experiences over the years that we would like to do over again. Thats in life general. Please don't draw total conclusions from one experience.But learn from it.

    Good Luck !!

    Joe Woods/Ontario
     
  17. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Bob, Go re-read my post.

    1) I know where the rule book is on the ATA site. I posted the link also.
    2) I like to have a hard copy so I can have one in my bag, like I said in my post.
    3) I stated that if this rule was not in the book that the only other option was DQ.
    4) The do-over comment was really tongue in cheek. I apologize that nobody got that. It was a play off what mixer said about do-overs. Bad choice, I know.

    So my question is, Bob, since 95% of your post was basically the same thing I wrote 6 hours prior, why did you post this to basically call me out? Am I missing something?

    Pat -- I disagree with the statement that it was management's fault to let this happen. Who know what they had done in training their scorers. They may have informed them about this situation and the scorer forgot. Once it was brought to the attention on management, they fixed it. The line ref can't be at every trap all the time to make sure each trap is oscillating.

    Sam -- agree with what you said IF there was something wrong with the management's interpenetration of the rule. In this case there was not. You can always ask for another person's opinion in management, but if they agree and you continue to argue, then you can start pushing the "harmony of the shoot" rule. In the end, know the rule book (which, I thought I did -- I still don't remember the re-shooting of targets from the wrong yardage), CARRY IT WITH YOU (since I have come across MANY line refs that will provide an interpretation of a rule and not have a rule book with them or worse, not have a current rule book), and stand your ground if you believe you are right. Just don't overly push the subject. You can always file a complaint with the ATA later.

    John
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    It was managements fault. If you're in charge, the blame is yours. Somebody forgot to turn the oscilater on.

    If they continued to shoot and no one turned it on and one of the shooters fired a 100 and won the shoot, would his score count? HMB
     
  19. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    HMB - yes they would. And yes, it is management's fault. When it was brought to their attention, they corrected it. What else can be done? Have an extra person stand behind each trap to make sure the oscillator is turned on or didn't fail?

    Now, back to the re-shooting of targets from the wrong yardage. I skimmed my 2007 rule book and cannot find any mention of this rule. Scott had posted "Before that rule there was a rule that said targets shot at the wrong yardage and scored dead had to be reshot, targets scored lost remained lost. What was never clear in the old rule was how to apply that - one post, one trap, the entire event. Looks like this rule was to clear that up and basically allow you to shoot one post over - but there is no way to improve your score by doing so, although you can make it worse." Can someone point me in the right direction of where this is at?
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    jevoliva

    "I know where the rule book is on the ATA site. I posted the link also"

    Well if you did it must be in code because it sure isn't in this thread!!!!

    "I like to have a hard copy so I can have one in my bag, like I said in my post."

    You chastise me and tell me to reread your post I think you had better reread your own posts.

    "Haven't got a hard copy for 2009 yet, but will in a couple of weeks"

    I see nothing in this statement about your bag and I don't find it in your posts. You BTW are not the only one that might benefit from my statement about the online rulebook.

    "I stated that if this rule was not in the book that the only other option was DQ."

    I did miss this statement and I apologize for that.

    "Am I missing something?"

    Yes but I don't think if I explained it to you you would be capable of understanding it anyway. Just for the record I don't need your permission to post. I also don't need you to approve of the subject matter that I use.

    One more item you made this statement. Even though it wasn't directed at me I will answer it at the risk of irritating you further.

    "I disagree with the statement that it was management's fault to let this happen. Who know what they had done in training their scorers."

    I guess that means that when they don't give their scorers the proper training they aren't at fault and I would guess that means that the scorer/referee isn't management.

    Kind of foolish though with the kind of power given to this person.

    A. PROCEDURE

    1. The official score is the record kept by the referee/scorer on a sheet
    furnished him/her by shoot management. The referee/scorer’s decision
    on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by
    the shoot committee or other governing body

    As far as I am concerned I said nothing in my post that would be to call you out as you say. You seem to think that you are the only one that can post on this thread so I figure it is your problem. I have apologized for missing the statement you made about the DQ are you going to apologize for your statement that you posted the link to the online rulebook????

    Bob Lawless
     
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