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question for the serious competitors

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by hmb, Jul 3, 2009.

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  1. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    You will start winning when you find the right gun. HMB
     
  2. copper

    copper Member

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    Shorter question is unless you practice at least how often for at least how long you will not be able tell your ability. What do exsperts agree on average what it takes to compete. DAVE
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Shorter answer, when you can consistantly break 95+ from the 16 yd line, from your yardage and any yardage you might earn. It's like the old joke: Q: How do I get to Carnagie Hall? A: Practice, practice, practice.

    Eric
     
  4. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Despite our past tifts.. I'll try to answer this honest question.. First my coach told me early on.. Look at a full size pickup truck.. when the rear bed is heaping full of empties you'll be well on your way..
    Get a good coach for ATA shooting.. despite all that I thought I knew..without a good coach I would not have gone very far..

    Understand everything it takes to have a gun fit you.. and your style of shooting. Also.. triggers and timing..POI.. patterns.. shells..etc.. TAKE the game apart..one stick at a time.

    KEEP A NOTEBOOK.. and write everything in it..Then you'll know what works for you..and what does not..

    Shoot everything.. don't sit on the 16 yard for your life.. shoot doubles,capps.. and I know I'll get alot of bad comments..but a round of skeet and or Sporting clays will keep you moving the gun..

    Trap Tutor was useful to me for eye excercises..

    Keep in shape mentally and physically.

    Do not "practice".. if you just practice.. you're just shooting.. When you go to the club.. go to TRAIN.. have a goal..go there to work on a specific problem.. or weakness..

    Study the better shooters.. watch there hold points.. their gun movement..and most important.. their foot position.

    Choke for smoke.. your scores will not be as high at first.. but you'll be closer to perfect than with a wide open choke..

    Get a spotter to stand in back of you to see what you're doing right or wrong.. Also.. getting a friend with a video cam to film you so you can disect your shooting later is quite useful..

    Have a winning thought.. See yourself in the winners circle.. See no other picture..

    Don't count targets.. just shoot them..


    Learn to find your "ZONE".. and how to get in and out of it.. For me.. that was very difficult.

    Learn what to eat.. and not eat the day of the shoot.. or even the night before.. Stay well hydrated..and just slightly hungry.. If you're full..you're slower..

    This is just a quick thought.. but to me.. the basics.. There is much more than this..but this is a good beginning..

    All Good...Happy 4th.. Mike
     
  5. copper

    copper Member

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    Thanks happy 4TH TO everyone Dave
     
  6. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    Good advice Mike and a Happy 4th to you as well.

    Jim
     
  7. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Mike you are soo right. Train don't practice. Exercise & get a good coach. It starting to click for me. Got some good advice from good knowlegable shooters who really are interested in seeing me shoot better. Thanks to everyone & especially thanks to those who expressed over my recent problem at last weeks shoot.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  8. MGeslock

    MGeslock TS Member

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    PerazziBigBore,

    Good post. One question.. How do you "train" for targets that are ever changing? I understand training gun mounts, foot position and hold points. However, there is no "mental sight picture" to remember.

    I hate to use the word "skeet" here..... you can do station work in skeet. In theory the targets are all the same. You can practice stations that are difficult.

    I guess thats where the pick up load of empty hulls comes in to place....

    What is a good 3 day a week trap training plan?

    Thanks.
     
  9. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Well.. this is a big question.. and you might get bored reading the answer.. but I'll try.. First.. that notebook I spoke about.. You'll need to use it for more than scratch paper.. You'll need to write down EVERYTHING.. your shoes,your shirt.. the time of day.. the cloud conditions..the wind..direction and speed..what you ate.. what medications you took..how you slept the last few days.. your lense color.. your hearing protection.

    Lets assume you have a good foot position..and that you are righthanded..If you have a strong wind from the left..the left bird will fly closer in.. and the right bird will not only fly farther out.. but faster and dip.. That calls for your right toe to be pointed a little more to the right..

    On top of that.. you might need to drop your hold point so you can get on and to the target before it dips.. If you don't know how to deviate from your regular stance when times like this come up..it will cost you birds..

    Same but bring the right foot toe a wee bit straighter and the left foot back and a bit to the left for a hard wind from the right..

    Prepairing for a win does not mean shooting with a squad the regular 25.. When you see in your notebook.. hard lefts from station 1 are eatting your lunch, you might spend a whole day on station 1 trying different hold points and foot placement..

    Don't forget hand placement on the forend.. it can vastly change the speed at which you get to the target.. Also.. no death grips please.. It slows you down and tires you out.. relax.. smooth..focus.. and enjoy..

    I see trapshooting as a barrel/bird relationship.. Don't look at the front sight..or even remove it.. it's useless once the gun is set up correctly.. BUT.. I'm a one eyed shooter.. I see the entire blur of a barrel..approaching the bird...Once your swing is properly established..the timing of the barrel comming to the bird and when you....without a thought..pull the trigger and break the bird.. you are well on your way.. Again.. Trap Tutor was very useful to me..

    Want to get good quickly.. 500 birds.. not 1 less 3 to 4 days a week.. Half of those with your coach. That will prevent you from getting bad habits.. A good coach will stop you before you get set with them.. Your fellow trapshooters who give you blurbs of advise don't even see it.. They have their own targets to worry about..

    Train for a ever changing target...OK.. can you visualize 17 things in your house?? 17 ex girlfriends.. 17 cars you once owned?? Ok..that's basically the number of different shots you have in 5 stations of trap..give or take a degree or two.. Some stations mimic a target at a different station so can't be counted twice.. Half of those should be easy for you.. You'll need to work on the other 8 or 9 shots.. Now.. if you can remember those 17 things.. you can remember the barrel/bird relationship.. It's not hard.. and comes with alot of shooting.. Soon.. it's instinctive.. like walking.. Any less than that.. you're just a contributor.. not a winner..

    If you start adding in what you learned from YOUR notebook.. It's no longer a surprise.. A head or tail wind.. a hard crossing wind.. If you forgot where the target will go.. read your notes.. Also.. study the targets at different clubs.. How they set them.. what the backround is.. and if any part of the backround will give you a problem.. Then you know how to correct it..before you walk on the field..

    Kind of like a mechanic.. once your tool box is full.. you'll have the right wrench to fix anything.. At a early stage.. you're working on tools.. not scores.. The scores will come once the toolbox is full..

    I would not publish what my training was.. as each person is different.. That's for your coach to do..

    Remember..you joke with friends.. you LEARN from a good coach.. I can't stress that enough.. Not every coach will fit YOUR personality.. You must find one that does..

    I will share with you a big turn off.. When a coach says.."you MUST do..xxxxxxxxxx liker this.." He can hit the road.. I much perfer.." consider this.. and see if it helps".. Yep.. that's a great start..

    Ok..this is the best start I can give you.. If you come to the GRAND.. I'll be working at Giacomo's.. Maybe when we have a break.. I can go into more details.. Hope this helps.. All Good.. and Happy 4th.. Mike
     
  10. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    A couple of quick thoughts:

    1) I watched a 9 year-old boy break a score in the 90's recently...I talked to him about it...all he knows is that when the clay comes out of the house, he shoots it.

    2) A lot has been written about how detrimental the conscious mind is when it controls your shooting, instead of the subconscious mind.

    I don't deny that it is important to learn the technical game of trap...but after that..

    Jef
     
  11. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    To get to the top.. You must shoot from the subconsious.. but it was not born with the knowledge to adapt to a changing target.. 9 year olds are great on a nice still day..with lofting targets.. Put a 35 Mph changing cross wind in there.. the outcome would be vastly different..unless he was also a bird shooter..
    You have to put the tools in the box.. very few of use were born with a full tool box..

    I remember having a young man ask us if he could join us in doubles..Armed with a black plastic pump shotgun.. he'd never tried it before.. He was shooting mid 40's out of 50.. First time out..

    Yes.. they do have a few naturals out there.. I'm NOT one of them.. I had to work.. and work hard for every target..

    Looks like you've been peaking in my bunker trap notebook.. I distinctly write down when I quit thinking.. and am simply a target locator providing information for the fire control system.. Most bunker targets are shot within about 3/10's of a second.. Ist shot hits.. There is no time to think.. You think before you clear your head.. and call for the target.. Then.. its all instinctive.. Unless you know foot position.. and hold points.. you defeat yourself.. All Good.. Mike
     
  12. MGeslock

    MGeslock TS Member

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    Lots of good info here. Thanks!!

    I have a bit more work to do before i head to the Grand!! :)
    Give me to years!!

    Mark
     
  13. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I'll bet I can improve your shooting by at least 20%, just by talking to you.
     
  14. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    Mike,
    We have never conversed before but I have to say that your posts on this subject are some of the very best advice I have read on this forum since its inception. I see SO much misinformed advice on the forum and once in a while something really good pops up. This is one of those times.

    Good work.

    Lyle
     
  15. copper

    copper Member

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    Thanks for all the info I have been around the sport for almost 40 year since a kid off and on more off than on hunted mainly. A couple years ago I was shooting a time or two a week for 6 or 8 months joined ATA only shot a few registered targets had a 89.50 AVERAGE 16 and 79.33 at caps. Then moved and trap ranges are scattered here and don,t have shooting buddys here so have not shot trap for 9 months. Good time to ask questions get info Some day hope to get back at it For now just research. When you have belonged to a private club half hour away you get spoiled. Dave
     
  16. DRIPSWNIP

    DRIPSWNIP TS Member

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    Kudos again Mike. I think there are alot more recreational shooters as apposed to the serious competition shooters. On here. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.

    Your advice though is solid for taking the recreational out and putting the winning in. It can still be enjoyable if you pay your dues. And it's more enjoyable to have bragging rights at your club and the feeling good about your hard work paying off.

    Mgeslock - you mentioned skeet shooting. Do you shoot alot of skeet? If so are you good at it? I only ask if you feel you have a preference for one or the other sport. Is skeet easier for you to shoot? Or is it trap.

    Someone told me a long time ago that one sport helps the other and vice versa. And yet someone else has told me when you dedicate your time to one the other suffers.

    I guess the really talented can shoot both about the same.

    Cooper - Good luck to you in taking it to the next level.
     
  17. MGeslock

    MGeslock TS Member

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    I started shooting skeet about 7 years ago. My club has 10 skeet fields. I shot what every one else shot. We had only 1 trap field. Since then we have added another field.


    I like to shoot orange targets! I am not a natural born shooter. This game is a learned one.


    My issue is mental "wandering". From the time I call pull to the time I pull the trigger... lots of stuff goes on in there.


    I find trap easier on my mind. I have to focus on the target and be alert.
    In skeet, I know where the target should be and that allows my mind to wander. I have started shooting with an iPod to help.


    I waited a few years in skeet before I had a lesson. I wanted to make sure that I enjoyed the game. That is where I am in trap. I really enjoy the game and now want to improve.


    In skeet, I am working on allowing my subconscious to take over and shoot the target when it looks right. Yes, it took a pick up load of empty hulls to have a mental sight picture. When I miss, I can close my eyes and know what I did. I can see the bird-barrel relationship.


    I was shooting the VA State trap shoot last weekend. I got the same target 3 times in a row. I missed it 3 times. My subconscious saw the "correct" lead and I pulled the trigger.
    That is why my question was how do you practice on unknowing targets.


    Before I had a chance to read to reads Mike’s post about 17, I was thinking that the pattern is 30 inches and how many 30 inches would there be in a trap field. This would break down the number of possible target presentations.


    I figured that I would work on the fundamentals with a qualified coach. That way I have a good foundation. As for the metal thing…… well, that’s another whole topic… :)

    Thanks to all thathave shared.... Hope to see ya at the 27!
     
  18. DRIPSWNIP

    DRIPSWNIP TS Member

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    Sounds like half the battle is over. Identifying the problem is a major step in correcting it. It's good hear you take responsibility for lost targets. I think we ( self included ) have blamed to much on everthing else, guns,wads,wind,the guy next to us, etc. except ourselves for missed targets.

    Wish you much success in finding a good coach. Sounds like your area has more interest in skeet shooting than trap. Or maybe it is just that club. So I hope the quest for a quality coach is not a long one.

    What type (s) of machines does your club have? Are they easy to adjust? That could be very helpful in the " station work" you eluded to when working on difficult skeet presentations.

    Do you bird hunt? Or have access to some bird hunting areas where you live? I have found, if you hunt birds, as I do as much as I can. The ability to keep it all together for the shot which is a subconcious action. Can pay big dividends in other forms of shooting. Most really good bird shots are natural shooters. Then they get all worked up when the get in a structured tournament and they become there worst enemy. When if they just acted as if they were behind a good bird dog. They would be not only a more consistent shooter. But a hard one to beat.

    Keep us all posted on your anticipated success.
     
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