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Question for Stockfitters

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by MTA Tom, Jul 5, 2008.

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  1. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    A friend recently bought a Citori XS for sporting clays. The stockfitter he went to said it was shooting high, so he added three degrees of down pitch to the stock to correct this. It now has more down pitch than almost any gun I've seen.

    I'm aware pitch can affect POI, but I didn't know stockfitters used it as a primary means of correction. In researching this, I came across this from Charles Edward Chapel's 1949 book "Field, Skeet and Trapshooting":

    "The purpose of pitch is to regulate the raising or lowering of the point of impact of the gun; that is, it governs the location of the spot where most of the pellets of the shot charge will strike. It does this by altering the slant of the butt. When the flat surface of the butt is held firmly and evenly against the shoulder, the point of impact will be high if the end of the barrel has a small amount of 'pitch down'....

    On the other hand, if the end of the barrel has a large amount of pitch down,...the point of impact will be low.

    The exact amount of pitch depends on the purpose for which the shotgun will be used. Guns for hunting and skeet usually have more pitch down than those used for trapshooting and hunting wild fowl. The reason for this is that in trapshooting and wild-fowl hunting, the targets are usually rising, and a high point of impact is desired"

    I's appreciate your comments. Is this how pitch is applied in modern stockfitting?
     
  2. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Is "Drop" being confused with pitch in this instance??

    Joe
     
  3. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    The picture accompanying the text in the book clearly illustrates pitch.
     
  4. over the hill

    over the hill Active Member

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    Rollin Oswald in an E mail May 28 said his new book hopefully will be available in about 6 weeks.

    The 391 Beretta I bought my son came with 8 degrees of negative pitch which I assume is down pitch????. We made a spacer to get back to 0 like the factory guns Ive seen. Hes starting to shoot it fairly well but this stock thing is confusing to me as well.


    Regards....Gerald
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    pitch was troublesome thing for me. I bought several thickness shims from brownells. Then just played around, you will find different pitch will affect a lot of things. I did as Rollin suggest in his book. When mounting my gun I played with the pitch until the full length of the recoil pad would contact my shoulder pocket at the same time. got rid of the toe digging in and cheap and lessend the cheak slap. I now have a PFS
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Tom, I think your friend needs a new stock guy. Pad pitch has nothing to do with POIs. CEC was good on frontier arms but trap stock fitting? He's way off base too in my opinion. Hap
     
  7. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    Is no one going to answer this mans question?

    Tom Im a slow typer. If you will call me I will explain how pitch is used today, How it was used in 1949 to control POI, and the differences between the two. Todd 256-762-6559cell
     
  8. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    I will also explain why the 1949 POI pitch applications will not work on todays trapguns. Todd
     
  9. Juno

    Juno TS Member

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    Seems like gunfitter Joe ought to be chiming in on this. I mean, he's the expert.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    I guess I have perfect timing! The pitch they were referring to was stock pitch and in the good old days people shot head up with stocks that we would say don't fit according to today's standards. When using this crude form of fitting the shooter was looking off of the end of the gun. The angle of the barrels would be changed in relation to the line of sight and could effect impact. Pitch of the stock will not change impact if shooting a trap gun although it will effect where the barrels naturally point. I would suspect that your friend's gun may shoot better. The only way to find out would be by shooting on a pattern plate before and after. If patterning wasn't done he needs a new gunfitter. Since this was a sporting gun more down pitch than the factory seems to be the norm especially on a large chest or on those of us that are overweight. I think your friend may still need help. Have him E-mail me if he has any questions.

    Remember if he is shooting better than something right was done.
    Joe
     
  11. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    Again I say. Is nobody going to answer this mans question?
     
  12. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Todd,

    NO.










    That is the answer to the Question! Do you care to expand on it?
    Joe
     
  13. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Reading the the original post...My guess for the answer is...with another question.

    How did the stockmaker know that the gun was shooting too high? No mention of a patterning board, no mention that the shooter's thoughts were he was shooting too high. The only thing a gunfitter or stock maker can determine is whether the shooter's eyes are centered on the rib and, if the shooter is mounting the gun correctly if he's familiar with the shotgun clay sports.

    What was the original complaint or concern, if there was one, did the shooter have?

    Doug
     
  14. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    BigBore I can't cut you up! I don't see anything wrong here.

    The hardest part of gunfitting for me is there seem to be no hard fast rules.
    If there were everyone could do it. OK maybe 80% of the time the rules work but the exceptions are out there. A lot more than you may imagine or I just see the exceptions I'm not sure on that one.

    The only way to know for sure is to shoot the gun at a pattern plate record the results make the modification and see if it's correct. You must Also take the gun to the range during the fitting and shoot several hundred targets while your in the process of making the modifications.

    Experience seems to dictate what modifications are done first in the fine tuning of the stock and balancing of the gun.

    Everyone is an individual and that means that the fit is an individual thing.

    Two shooters with the exact same height ,weight,chest size, and arm length probably won't have the same stock fit them. Variations in cheek bone,length of neck,distance between eyes and shooting style dictate the fit of the gun as well.
    Joe
     
  15. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    GunDr Ditto.

    Joe
     
  16. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Doug and Joe, my friend said the gun seemed to be shooting high; he felt he had to float sporting clays targets much more than he was comfortable with. I believe, but don't know for certain, that the fitter used a patterning board, and that he also slightly lengthened the stock with a new pad. I've avoided asking too many questions, or expressing my reservations to my friend, since I wasn't sure and didn't want to plant negative thoughts in his mind.

    Some background: my friend is very experienced and a good "casual" shot at trap, skeet and sporting clays. He bought the Citori XS for sporting clays, and shot it well despite feeling it shot high. He's average height and weight, and shoots a "normal" style. Although he said he was floating the targets, it didn't look like it to me, and I don't think he was missing many over the top. I've only shot with him a few times since the gun was altered, but he's not shooting as well, and oddly enough, his misses now look high to me!

    Mike, your explanation makes perfect sense to me.

    Todd, I'll try to call in the next day or so. Thanks, all, I really appreciate the help.
     
  17. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    I think I know the problem the words gunfitter and butcher are not synonymous. Your friend went to a butcher.

    Lengthening the stock on the gun would likely make it shoot lower since the comb height at contact is lower. Have your friend take the gun to the plate again and have him look at a spot and mount and shoot it just like it's a sporting target. This should give a true idea of where his impacts are. If there too low; box it up and send it to Todd for an adj comb. If on the other hand if the impact is too high wood will need to be removed and the stock refinished. You can always call or e-mail me as well 609 231 6187 One word of caution! A few trap shooters have the habit of lifting their heads: especially if the stock is too low and they can't see over the receiver.

    You could also have your friend shoot straight away targets from post 3 and he will soon figure out where the gun is shooting for him.

    One other thing to keep in mind I call it the new gun or new gun fit syndrome! How many of you out there have bought a new gun based on the first time you shot the gun. Lots of us can shoot a different gun better than our own: because we pay attention more when something is new. Same applies to gunfit's. Your friend probably falls in to the 20% of the people who are hard to fit.

    On the subject of gunfitter's It is always best to go with a known commodity If you can't get references and preferably from shooters you know I wouldn't spend the money. The same applies for instructors. Don't confuse a championship status with being able to help other shooters. Todd is very experienced in setting up guns for shooters. If your near him I would have no problem recommending him. I would also Recommend Dennis Devault He is truly knowledgeable in the field of shotgunning. The fact is all the rest I can think of are shooters and I've always been skeptical of giving money to someone and ending on the line shooting against them isn't that what some would call double donating.

    Joe
     
  18. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Too much playing around with adjustments and thinking about them? I'd go half way back to the origional setting and leave it there for a week or two. You could have just been tired. Maybe that glare was worse than you thought. Unless we are there your the only one who will know. Have fun with your real targets. Joe
     
  19. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    MTA Tom,

    I agree with those who wrote that "no" is the answer to your question. As was also written, pitch is changed to allow complete contact of the recoil pad to the shoulder pocket and as was also written, to limit barrel rise during recoil.

    The primary determinant of vertical POI is the eye's height above the rib when shots are fired. That fact is the reason patterning is of limited value.

    When patterning, the eye is positioned exactly at the height the shooter wants it, which isn't necessarily the height of the eye (relative to the rib) when shots are fired at moving targets.

    Generally speaking, when the eye looks along the surface of the rib, the gun shoots flat. If the POI is slightly above point of aim, it is due to a slope of the rib, breech to muzzle as is common on trap guns.

    POI can be lowered by lengthening a stock if a field-stock with a non-parallel, rising comb is being used and the lengthening causes the cheek to make contact farther back on a lower part of the comb, farther below the rib.

    The only other effect stock-length would have on vertical POI would be due to the differing amounts of flesh that covers the cheekbone depending on how the cheek makes contact with the stock - it can vary with the forward tilt of the neck and the length of the stock.

    Stock fit is dependent on the shooting form that the stock fitter has the customer use, particularly the gun mount and stance. Both have quite an affect on stock dimensions along with shooter size, shape and the shooting discipline for which the stock is being fitted.

    over the hill,

    As it is turning out, I was overoptimistic in May. "Stock Fitter's Bible" will not sent to the printer until later this month and will not be available for sale until sometime in August.

    The reason relates to Microsoft's new nightmare software, Word 2007 in MS Office 2007. It is nothing like the older versions of Word and is not stable - it changes formats for no reason. I have spent 9 hours on the phone with Microsoft Technical Support personnel during the past two days and even they cannot figure it out.

    I CAN say though, the new book will be better than "Stock Fitting Secrets" was. The graphics are expanded and new text has been added on about 40 additional pages.

    I will post a thread here when books can be ordered from my website, which will be reactivated) - http://www.stockfitting.com. I will use the U.S. mail again to ship them.

    Rollin
     
  20. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    Right-on Rollin, as usual. Hap is right. Joe is right, I just couldnt resist the temptation to SPIN Joe UP a little. Hey , all you guys been hammerin on him and I just felt left out.

    Heres my 2

    Way back in the day {remember what the guns looked like} European gunmakers designed stocks to suit the pursuit of driven pheasants. Incoming targets, barrels pointed way up high in the air, stocks pitched to accomodate that position on the shoulder. Stocks low on the cheek by todays standards, see a ton of rib, gun shoots high. Touch a high incoming bird, bird dies.

    Take that same gun, point it at a traphouse, the toe of the stock digs into the shoulder and still shoots too high because the pitch will force a lower gunmount. In other words, you cant get comfortable while looking straight down the barrel.

    Some genius figured out that he could hack a gob of wood off the toe. Gun mount is now higher in the shoulder, more comfortable, and he can now look flat down the barrel...I.E. Adding down pitch makes the gun shoot lower. Adding Up pitch makes the gun shoot higher becauses it forces a different mount point on the shoulder and yields a different sight picture for each adjustment according to the things it allowed the shooter to do.

    So for those guns, during that period of time, it was commonly said and proven that pitch did alter POI and in 1949, we got our book.

    Although some of the old LORE of [fitting in the 40's} bleeds over into todays fitters, the pitch principles do not apply.

    Most stocks today are built higher and fatter, forcing more face contact and requiring more precise attention to fitting. Since most stocks are more parallel than in the days of old, we now use adjustable combs, custom stocks, mole skin, bondo, duct tape{if you are from Kentucky} to raise POI.

    We now apply pitch for the sole purpose of comfort in the shoulder. Never to make the gun shoot up or down. The fitters who still apply the 1949 rule, on todays guns, should be made to prove it in the pattern board.

    Yours in shooting, Todd Nelson
    See Ya'll in Indiana
     
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